Silver Fox UL / Acrobatx UL??

[JaseRicco]

Wondering if anyone has any opinions regarding Flying Wings Kites both in general as a company that fabricates kites, and more specifically about both the Acrobatx UL & Silver Fox UL. 

Edited August 6, 2017 by JaseRicco

[kitedad]

My boy, (24 year old kid) has two fw kites, a std silver fox 2.5 and a vented 2.5, both fly well, smooth straight, somewhat tricky, trickable, ( not quite as "floppy as his Lam Hoac atm} but very capable.   we've sort of moved on from the std to other brands, it has more pull than his newer kite. most kites have adjustment points at the upper spreader to ease the pull but this kite has a bead system that allows you to change between two modes of flying. but neither mode doesn't seem to do much about altering the amount of pull the kite has.  I've heard the ul has only about 1 mph or so in the lower wind range so we went with other kites for ul which have a better low wind advantage. his Lam Hoac is one for trickability and the other is a widowmaker pro sul for super low wind conditions to about 5-7. The build quality looks pretty good for a production kite, the only problems I've come across is some superglue issues, not using enough in places? dunno, minor stuff I guess. He likes his vented, he's flown it in wind up to nearly 30 mph but it Will drag you around at that speed but its a real tank of a kite. We go to that one when the wind gets around 12 mph and above. Too much wind for him to trick much  but it handles well at those speeds. the std is now his secondary std wind kite. All in all a pretty good intermediate to advanced kite but it could leave you wanting after a while. It was the best available at the time we bought them for the price and the features. Time does not stand still however.

[JaseRicco]

@kitedad I looked at kites from both SkyBurner & SkySportDesign, but these are out of my price range...for now. And the reason that I am hesitant in purchasing the Silver Fox is due to the weight. Most of the UL's I look at seem to come in at about 7-8 oz...give or take of course. But the Silver Fox 2.3 & 2.5 are both over 11oz, which is just 4 oz less than my Quantum. I just don't see how something that heavy would make a good UL for low wind conditions. But every review of the Silver Fox's seem to be good. I don't know.

[Wayne Dowler]

How low is considered "your low"? Kites that are designed to work in this area are usually pretty spendy, due to materials used and the designer's ideas. Might be better to save for something really good, than run out and get anything, hoping it can do! Also keep an eye out on the used market - but - have cash in hand! Sometimes stuff hits the market and goes before you know it!

I went through this many years ago when first learning. Went through a bunch of stuff thinking they were the "perfect" kite for light wind. Finally realized it wasn't them that lacked, it was the guy holding the lines! Not knowing about matching lines to sails, sails to winds, etc. Took time, but it came. I ended up with a Prism Ozone for light stuff. Out of production, but still around used.

The Pro Dancer from SkyBurner has to be one, if not the finest light wind kite out there, but they are spendy. But if you're determined to fly ..............

[JaseRicco]

@Wayne Dowler as always, great info and good points. Again, I am not looking for anything that is going to stay aloft miraculously. Just looking for a kite that is going to stay aloft in low wind conditions the easiest. I would assume the kites that are going to do this would be the ones with less mass to them. And in order to achieve less mass kite designers will have to look to higher end materials, which will in turn cost more to those of us that wish to purchase. I would assume that design is a big factor as well. Just because something weighs close to nothing does not mean it will fly. With that said, I have narrowed my choices down to the Zephyr, Acrobatx UL, and Silver Fox 2.3 & 2.5 UL's. This is due to a combination of price, materials used, and the feedback that has been given on each.

[Wayne Dowler]

I haven't flown any of those, but my Ozone is the predecessor to the Zephyr. I believe they upped the top range over the Ozone, might be from better rods available at this time from the past. 

[JaseRicco]

24 minutes ago, Wayne Dowler said:

I haven't flown any of those, but my Ozone is the predecessor to the Zephyr. I believe they upped the top range over the Ozone, might be from better rods available at this time from the past. 

I am leaning towards the Zephyr. I have an email to Prism requesting the assembled weight. If they come back with the right weight(right weight in my mind anyway), I will have my answer.

And as a side note - The reason that I originally decided against the Zephyr was because of the advice given to me on the Kymera. I was offered the Kymera for a great price by my local kite shop CobraKites. But when asked about it's low wind capabilities, I was told to look elsewhere for a low wind kite, because by the time you adjusted the kymera for what I am looking to do, I will have "taken the Kymera out of the Kymera". Given that the Zephyr and Kymera are very similar in price, materials and design, I assume this to be true for he Zephyr as well. But when you posted about the Zephyr being very capable in low winds with the right adjustments...it was put back into the running.

Edited August 7, 2017 by JaseRicco

[Wayne Dowler]

Just remember it is all a compromise!! Lose too much weight and lose "trickiness". Add too much and lose light wind capability. Everything affects something - it's your choice on what to affect!!

[John Barresi]

I find one of the biggest changes between $200 and $300 class dual line kites is overall stiffness of the spars... P300, Excel, etc just aren't generally as stiff as the more expensive 3PT, Black Nitros, etc.

Floppy kites just aren't typically as good at precision or tricks.

[makatakam]

Your best option, IMHO, is to wait and save up enough to buy a ProDancer SUL, or something similar which is intended for very light wind. If you gotta have it now, you already know your options.

[JaseRicco]

10 minutes ago, John Barresi said:

I find one of the biggest changes between $200 and $300 class dual line kites is overall stiffness of the spars... P300, Excel, etc just aren't generally as stiff as the more expensive 3PT, Black Nitros, etc.

I am still learning the differences in carbons. I've seen all sorts of descriptions that different kite designers use...Pultruded, Wrapped, P100, P300, 3PT, Dynamic T12 & T15 etc...all very confusing. But, for me, this is part of the fun in a hobby. I love the research and learning part of the process. Its fun to wonder and then get your answers from research or questions.

[TonyB]

The Silver Fox seems like a fairly capable kite in low winds (not sure how low they were during this vid since Lam didn't post the info but the trees weren't moving much in the background). This may also be a new revision Lam was testing since he also posted "coming out in the near future" in the description:

Anyways, thought that vid might help to decide and if you had questions perhaps ask Lam how it compares to other kites since he has firsthand experience.

 

[SHBKF]

The weight of two Zephyrs now in the Kite Dungeon

Completely stock kite with Inferno color scheme

Both kites have vinyl end caps on the leading edge tips, 2 1/2 grams for the pair of them

Kite without tail weight 298 grams or 10 1/2 ounces

Second kite is also completely stock and in the Eggplant color scheme

With stock Prism tail weight 315 grams, 11 1/8 ounces

tail weight weighs 17 grams

If you remove the upper spreader you save 12 grams

Kite without upper spreader, end caps & tail weight would be about 284 grams or 10 ounces

It amazed me that both kites weighed the same.  Something to be said for quality control.

As is frequently noted, "your mileage may vary".

SHBKF

 

[JaseRicco]

27 minutes ago, TonyB said:

The Silver Fox seems like a fairly capable kite in low winds (not sure how low they were during this vid since Lam didn't post the info but the trees weren't moving much in the background). This may also be a new revision Lam was testing since he also posted "coming out in the near future" in the description:

 

 

Yes, that seems to be the consensus regarding the Silver Fox Kites. I see the trees and grass in a constant breeze, but doesn't look like too much. And it looks like that is a 2nd Gen Silver Fox that Flying Wings will be releasing soon...SUL instead of UL as well. Wonder if I should wait to see what they come out with. 

[JaseRicco]

37 minutes ago, SHBKF said:

The weight of two Zephyrs now in the Kite Dungeon

Completely stock kite Inferno color scheme

Both kites have vinyl end caps on the leading edge tips, 2 1/2 grams for the pair of them

Kite without tail weight 298 grams or 10 1/2 

Thanks for the info...much appreciated. What are vinyl endcaps? And I have seen individuals talk about removing the upper spreader, but how would this work? Don't you need to keep the upper spreader for the kites shape?

Any input on the Zephyr low wind capabilities?

And you wouldn't want to part with that inferno would you??

Edited August 7, 2017 by JaseRicco

[SHBKF]

Here is a picture showing vinyl end caps on some modified Rev handles, white on top black on bottom.  The inner diameter & perhaps length would be different for use with a dualie.  They cover the tips of the leading edges to protect them & hold the tensioning line more firmly.  They also help provide a more snagless tip.  They are available in many sizes.  I bought mine bulk from an industrial supply house.  I have probably a dozen different sizes for various applications.  They can come off during landings & tip stabs.  Many don't use them.

The Inferno Z is not for sale.  It was the first good dualie I bought when I had my kite reawakening five years ago.  First time I flew it I could not believe how good it felt.  I almost always carry this kite with me when I travel the country.  Wish I could spend a day flying with you & letting you try a bunch of my kites.    SHBKF

[TonyB]

9 minutes ago, JaseRicco said:

Yes, that seems to be the consensus regarding the Silver Fox Kites. I see the trees and grass in a constant breeze, but doesn't look like too much. And it looks like that is a 2nd Gen Silver Fox that Flying Wings will be releasing soon...SUL instead of UL as well. Wonder if I should wait to see what they come out with. 

I was considering purchasing the Silver Fox myself but after talking to Lam on the phone I ended up going with his latest sports kite design: the AC (Amazing Control). The winds in my area tend to be relatively light most of the year (average of 4 MPH) and Lam's kites are extremely well made by hand, precise, perform well in a decent wind range, excellent at tricking, and lastly he is extremely helpful and will offer advice before/after purchasing to ensure you get the most out of the kite flying experience. The main downside is that his kites do tend to be rather spendy so the upcoming Silver Fox might be worth waiting for (if funds are the limiting factor in your decision).

[JaseRicco]

1 hour ago, SHBKF said:

The Inferno Z is not for sale.  It was the first good dualie I bought when I had my kite reawakening five years ago.  First time I flew it I could not believe how good it felt.  I almost always carry this kite with me when I travel the country.  Wish I could spend a day flying with you & letting you try a bunch of my kites.    SHBKF

Figured you'd say that lol

im glad you like it that much because I love Prism kites and have had my eye on the Zephyr. Low wind...3-7mph?

I'd like that Too.

[JaseRicco]

1 hour ago, TonyB said:

I was considering purchasing the Silver Fox myself but after talking to Lam on the phone I ended up going with his latest sports kite design: the AC (Amazing Control). The winds in my area tend to be relatively light most of the year (average of 4 MPH) and Lam's kites are extremely well made by hand, precise, perform well in a decent wind range, excellent at tricking, and lastly he is extremely helpful and will offer advice before/after purchasing to ensure you get the most out of the kite flying experience. The main downside is that his kites do tend to be rather spendy so the upcoming Silver Fox might be worth waiting for (if funds are the limiting factor in your decision).

I've heard his kites are amazing. But funds are limited. I wonder when the Gen 2 will be released and for how much.

[SparkieRob]

Mass is a relative term with kites. Don't think that the lighter kite will fly lower. Think more in sail area AND mass. Think efficiency. A big wing, 8 feet wide, will be heavier due to its size but will be lighter if the mass is distributed across the greater amount of sail.

Side note. I would rather work a bit harder to keep a "heavier" kite flying because I like to have the mass to throw it around.


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[TonyB]

1 hour ago, JaseRicco said:

I've heard his kites are amazing. But funds are limited. I wonder when the Gen 2 will be released and for how much.

I just spoke with Lam on the phone about an order he was working on for me and I inquired about the upcoming Silver Fox (gen 2) as well. He said that Flying Wings hired him to design the Gen 2 Silver Fox and that video above was of the prototype he created for it. He didn't give an exact date about when it would be officially released (just said it'd be "soon") and he mentioned it would be close to $200 (one hell of a deal for a kite designed by Lam). He mentioned it will be slightly smaller than his AC stunt kite and a few of the attachments will be different but overall said it performs very similar to his other high-end kites.

I hope that helps! 

[John Barresi]

3 hours ago, SparkieRob said:

Mass is a relative term with kites. Don't think that the lighter kite will fly lower. Think more in sail area AND mass. Think efficiency. A big wing, 8 feet wide, will be heavier due to its size but will be lighter if the mass is distributed across the greater amount of sail.

Side note. I would rather work a bit harder to keep a "heavier" kite flying because I like to have the mass to throw it around.

This sums up my usual preference too.

[kitedad]

4 hours ago, SparkieRob said:

Mass is a relative term with kites. Don't think that the lighter kite will fly lower. Think more in sail area AND mass. Think efficiency. A big wing, 8 feet wide, will be heavier due to its size but will be lighter if the mass is distributed across the greater amount of sail.

Side note. I would rather work a bit harder to keep a "heavier" kite flying because I like to have the mass to throw it around.


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I believe my boy would like to work a bit less to keep a lighter kite flying because he doesn't like to have to throw his heavy mass around. LOL>  

4 hours ago, JaseRicco said:

Figured you'd say that lol

im glad you like it that much because I love Prism kites and have had my eye on the Zephyr. Low wind...3-7mph?

I'd like that Too.

seriously though his zephyr  is what I would call  an ul kite. I believe the lowest wind range hes gotten it to fly is right about 3mph maybe a little less with the lulls  We bought it about two seasons ago but he's bored with it now. He likes the lam hoac atm a lot better because of its trickabililty and has the new widomaker to fly at much lower wind. I am going to try to sell the zephyr along with an widow ng he doesn't use much. {likes the silver wings better} we also bought an silver wings zero kite which flys in very light wind but it's not a full size kite. The widowmaker sul wasn't available when we bought the zero last year, it was only about 100$ so we will probably keep the zero for a while longer. Someday I'd like to get Lam to build him one of his newer kites like the transformer or something. He's got to get better with the tricks before that happens. I bought the zephyr used for 100$. 3-7 mph is about right. We thought about the pro dancer too but decided to go with the widow, if the wind is sub 1mph he's going to sit it out. He wanted a kite with more trickability than the prodancer. Sub 1 mph is basically indoor flying, he's not into that right now. I guess I'd take 100 or so for the zephyr and about 60 for the ng. the zephyr is red btw inferno?

[JaseRicco]

10 hours ago, TonyB said:

I just spoke with Lam on the phone about an order he was working on for me and I inquired about the upcoming Silver Fox (gen 2) as well. He said that Flying Wings hired him to design the Gen 2 Silver Fox and that video above was of the prototype he created for it. He didn't give an exact date about when it would be officially released (just said it'd be "soon") and he mentioned it would be close to $200 (one hell of a deal for a kite designed by Lam). He mentioned it will be slightly smaller than his AC stunt kite and a few of the attachments will be different but overall said it performs very similar to his other high-end kites.

I hope that helps! 

Thanks man, I really appreciate the info! Wonder what "soon" means. In my mind that can be anywhere from a few weeks to a few months. I saw that the kite was also an SUL not a UL, which is what the Acrobatx & Silver Fox's are. From what I see, often times when you go from UL to SUL you give up some mass in the kite, which is why I am looking for a UL. Something that is light enough for low winds but still gives you some feedback...wingspan of about 7 or 8 feet would do.

I looked on Lams sight and didn't see anything called the AC?

[SparkieRob]

There's more on FB about the AC than Lams website.
An 8 footer will be "slower" than the same kite as a seven footer.


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