Comparisons

[cjay]

Really like that Premier addiction you had in the smoke color. Can't find one in that color for sale anywhere now. I didn't see it when it went up for sale or I would have bought it.

What happened, I thought it was one of your favorite kites?

 

 

[Breezin]

Grand kids still got a green one. Upgraded to a Widow Maker Pro and a couple Lam kites. Was going to replace it with the Addiction Pro. Got kite poor due to some couldn't pass up deals.Bought a Flexi Foil Psycho that fills the Addiction spot nicely. Plus a Rev 1.5 and TOTL C15. I'm on the list for a Sky Burner Solus that'll hopefully be here before Thanksgiving. If I keep this up I'm going to have to go pan a handling to get my Addiction Pro. Still one of my favorites.

[cjay]

Wow, you really went full tilt.

What your thoughts about the widow maker pro, and Lam kites?

I was interested in how you are liking them, and how you would compare the flying experience to the Widow Ng since you liked the NG.

 

 

[RobB]

There is no comparing kites like the Widow Maker or Lam kites to off-the-shelf production kites. Different level stuff. But, good production kites like the Widow are more than enough for just about every kiter out there. For me, it's not just about how a kite flies, it's how it's built, who built it, how it looks, etc... With hand built kites, there's so much character in the wing, and they fly really awesome, too. If you appreciate all these things, it's worth $100+ more to go for a special kite that was built for you. 

Your skill level doesn't really matter, as long as you're not crashing more than flying....

[cjay]

Of course a person can compare the flight characteristics of one kite to another, they are fabric, with frames, and strings attached to them, and they can be flown.

Breezin is good at articulating flight characteristics, which is interesting to read about.

 

 

[Breezin]

On 7/21/2018 at 5:26 PM, cjay said:

 

Breezin is good at articulating flight characteristics, which is interesting to read about.

 

 

Ha but thanks for the compliment. Agree with Rob It's apples to oranges but I'll give it a go. Jewel,Wolf ng, Widow ng are Premiers spider series. Didn't have the Wolf but had the closely related Nighthawk. Widow Maker would be the crown jewel. There are some side by side comparisons of the ng and pro. The consensus seemed to be they were very similar in flight but better build quality on the pro. 3 to 5 mph real similar for me. Above that not so much.  Steve Tapp tweaked the lower LE some  when he was sewing for Sky Burner.Mines a Tapp sail and that could be why my experience is different. Ng sail loads slower and it's louder. More pull and it pushes thru the wind in  very predictable rewarding way. For me not to much fun above 15 mph.Very deliberate flight. Pro is lighter on the lines and needs gentler inputs. Not as forgiving as the ng but is more responsive. When making mistakes close to or at center window you'd better react fast or you'll pay.Has 6 nose adjustments that I haven't got figured out yet. A lot of my kites I've flown depending on my mood. The pro can be adjusted to just about any mood I'm in from 3 to 23. Seems to slide thru the wind. Pro Dancer and Zephyr are more of a gliding type feel unless 10+ on the Z. Then it starts to drive. Tekken, Mind Trick and Hydra drive thru the wind no matter the speed. Neither feeling is better than the other. Just different. From what I've read the Bensons and similar kites have that sliding feel also.I maybe got to 20% of what my ng could do. For what it cost great value for any skill set. It's different enough from the pro that I could justify having both. Pro has the IT factor. Can't explain IT but you know IT when you feel IT. Got lucky and got the last brand new, never flown, Tapp sewn Widow Maker Pro for sale. What Rob said about the why he goes boutique at times applies to my WMP hands down. Worth a lot more to me then what I paid for it. Going to fly it till it can't fly no more. That's why it was built. I am in awe of my Widow Maker Pro 😻. 

[RobB]

I didn't mean to say anything bad about off-the-shelf good kites like Prism or Premier. They're good kites that will last for years. But, comparing those to custom kites is like comparing a Mustang to a Ferrari. If you appreciate that kind of thing, that's all. 

A skilled pilot can fly amazing stuff with a Prism Quantum, probably better than me with my best kite. But, it's something special when you know the person who made your kite, and you can see & hold in your hands the time & effort that the artist spent to make your kite. Something like Steve's last WidowMaker is also a piece of history. There will never be another one of those.

My Widow Makers were made by Pam Kirk, kites that will never be made again. I am also lucky to have one of Steve Tapp's Enigmas, I enjoy flying it and thinking about him.

Sorry if what I said came off wrong...

[Breezin]

Didn't to me. Understood completely. I'm tickled pink to have a TOTL C15 like Pam Kirk had when she became the 1st female champ. Pretty nervous letting my grand kids fly my Hydra and Zephyr. The kite they all seemed to do well on myself included was the  Premier Nighthawk. Kite I have regretted selling the most. Brand new one will be here by Friday. Not sure if I'm an addict or just kite stupid. Probably both. Don't like to think about it.

[cjay]

 

Nice critique Breezin, good information as usual.

Another nighthawk, over an addiction even?

You prefer the Flexi foil psycho over the addiction? I am not really up on those older kites, the dot matrix kite looked interesting and has nice colors. The older trick and track colors look nice.

No worries RobB, I get it, if I had the cash and skyburner still made the WM, I would like to buy a custom color one.

[Breezin]

Flew the Nighthawk for a little over an hour. Winds gusting over 20 at times so will go back out on my Mind Trick vented. Addiction Pros are still for sale at K&FT. Figured my Nighthawk would be replaced with a Wolf ng. Going to fly the grand kids Addiction side by side with the Psycho and I'll let you know.Leaning towards Psycho. Nighthawk at my skill set is a little easier to trick than the Addiction.Addiction is so responsive it's easier to lose control. The plus is it's easy to get control back which is 1/2  the reason why it's so much fun. Pulling out of a mistake that I know would crash any of my other kites has led to tears at times (laughter). The Nighthawk felt like I had flown it yesterday. Super happy to have it back. It's one of those kites that are proof you don't need a boutique kite to be a trick monster. If you told me I'd have to give up my Premiers Jewel, Addiction, Nighthawk and Widow ng to get 1 Widow Maker Pro I'd say. WAIT a minute I did. Would not hesitate to do it again and I loved by Premiers. Wish I could describe better what a WMP is like but violent elegance is what always comes to mind. Something I hope everyone gets to experience. Shocking to me as it is I know some will not care for it near as much as I do. You Tube Nighthawk and you'll find a guy in Florida on one doing some of the most excellent flying.

[cjay]

I was finally able to get out and fly at the beach the other day for about 3 hours. I took my E2 out this time.

Put a real beating on it and crashed many times, but didn't break it.

 The wind was awesome, smooth and steady at about 8 mph.

I am still working on basic control. It is hard to keep track of movement and hand position when it is moving that fast.

 Also I watched Dodd Gross videos and don't really understand punch turns vs pull turns. I mean either way the same hand is farther forward than the other so I don't see why it matters which method you use.

I found the kite was pulling too hard in the window to hold the handles at the waist in a neutral position for very long, so I had to fly with my arms extended most of the time.

[Exult]

12 hours ago, cjay said:

It is hard to keep track of movement and hand position when it is moving that fast. 

If you think that the kite is too quick trim the nose back (well, never seen the E2, but suppose you do it that way and not by some fancy sail adjustment). Add enough nose back so that it takes off from the ground easily (with a proper start), but yet so that you can make it stall/reduce speed by moving you/the arms towards the kite. Also not only practice turns, also practice speed control (and stall) - fly with moving feet and run down winds to reduce speed when necessary.

12 hours ago, cjay said:

I Also I watched Dodd Gross videos and don't really understand punch turns vs pull turns. I mean either way the same hand is farther forward than the other so I don't see why it matters which method you use.

If I remember correctly from a long time ago I think Dodd Gross divided the turns into three turns, pull turn, push turn and combination turn. The potential sharpness of the turn is here in increasing order with the combination turn being the sharpest.

Starting with the pull turn, the least sharp one, by pulling I see the situation so that you also add a total line tension increase and possibly a boost in speed during the turn.

For the push turn, sharper than the pull turn, you decrease the line tension. Three days ago in medium towards a bit higher wind with my Smithi Pro foil while flying not at the edge of the wind window and fast forward (=pulling hard), there was a need to lean backwards when pulling. When maintaining the high speed in the turns (and therefore the high pull from the kite), the push turns turned out to be more relaxing and easier to do and more controlled than the pull turns.

The combination turns can be performed with various degrees of aggressiveness making a square turn all the way until you almost tear it into a snap stall (and can be performed with rather similar input).

12 hours ago, cjay said:

I found the kite was pulling too hard in the window to hold the handles at the waist in a neutral position for very long, so I had to fly with my arms extended most of the time. 

Don’t worry about your arms not hanging relaxed next to your sides as is common for slack line tricks, For precision it is more common to have your arms slightly in front of you (and you were currently focusing on turns, weren't you?).

[cjay]

10 hours ago, Exult said:

I think Dodd Gross divided the turns into three turns, pull turn, push turn and combination turn

Yeah that's what I remember. Hard to explain about the control and keeping track of how the kite is turning and hand position.

I was used to flying using pull turns before, and the kite moves in the reverse direction doing push turns. So this makes it more difficult to keep track of, and become instinctive on the controls. I simply couldn't fly in a square pattern using push turns.

 

10 hours ago, Exult said:

For precision it is more common to have your arms slightly in front of you (and you were currently focusing on turns, weren't you?).

That is good to know.

Yeah, I was focusing on turns, and trying to get control and accuracy during flight. I practiced quite a bit of stall flying before and it seems much easier for me than keeping track of the hand movements and controlling the kite for turns.

[Breezin]

My neutral position is elbows in against my sides with forearms extended.It's just ended up that way for better or worse. Year from now it might be different.Push turns at the start seemed counter intuitive to me also. I'll add this to Exults excellent description. When pulling you're increasing pressure. Pushing is dumping the pressure. Going to the top of the window and practicing axles and 1/2 axles got me to really dig into the push turns. The little push before the harder pull started the process for me. You can clearly see the kite billow and dump the wind.When I 1st started the basic moves seemed boring. Took me awhile to realize that combining the push, pull and combo turns results in about 32 basic precision moves. That leads to around 1032 precision based patterns to start. Boring, boy was I wrong. Watch Gregory Hines or Art Kelly dance. Both choreographed most of their routines from the basic 4 step box waltz. From there it's onto the kite ballet which is only limited by our imagination. That makes tricking even better cause you start understanding the why. The why becomes more rewarding than the how. I get most frustrated when I get stuck on the how forgetting to ask why.Who here among us has truly mastered the art of flying? No one. I think that's why the ones we fledglings call masters keep flying.Just when you think you got it down the wind changes. Man I need a thong.

[cjay]

14 hours ago, Breezin said:

That makes tricking even better cause you start understanding the why. The why becomes more rewarding than the how.

 I sometimes zone out and forget about what I was trying to do, and end up just enjoying the environment, and feel of the kite in the wind. Good times!

 

The precision flying looks like fun also.

[Exult]

22 hours ago, cjay said:

I was used to flying using pull turns before, and the kite moves in the reverse direction doing push turns. So this makes it more difficult to keep track of, and become instinctive on the controls. I simply couldn't fly in a square pattern using push turns.

Perhaps a different perspective could be of help?: Think more on the kite instead of on your hands. In a pull turn you pull the corresponding wing tip towards you and in a push turn you push away the (other then) corresponding wing tip. Both ways will make the closest wingtip point in the direction of the turn.

E.g. when flying parallel close to the ground, push away the lowest wing tip (from the ground) or pull the top wing tip (away from the ground) – Both pictures are hopefully somewhat intuitive at least.

[makatakam]

And don't forget that each person's style is different. What works for me may not work for you. Physical limitations also play a role. A good way to maximize what you can accomplish is to try flying while sitting down. Not possible to do a lot of tricks in strong wind, but a light wind can help improve your ability. I've seen people in wheelchairs fly with more control than I have while standing on my feet.

[cjay]

6 minutes ago, Exult said:

Perhaps a different perspective could be of help?: Think more on the kite instead of on your hands. In a pull turn you pull the corresponding wing tip towards you and in a push turn you push away the (other then) corresponding wing tip. Both ways will make the closest wingtip point in the direction of the turn.

E.g. when flying parallel close to the ground, push away the lowest wing tip (from the ground) or pull the top wing tip (away from the ground) – Both pictures are hopefully somewhat intuitive at least.

Sure, thanks.

I need more practice to match control movements to desired kite movements.

 

[Breezin]

10 hours ago, Exult said:

 

E.g. when flying parallel close to the ground, push away the lowest wing tip (from the ground) or pull the top wing tip (away from the ground) – Both pictures are hopefully somewhat intuitive at least.

One of the simplest moves that will get your heart pounding is to reverse flight with nose spinning towards the ground not the sky. Start mid window and work your way down the window. When you get the knack (takes awhile)you'll be right on the edge of disaster. As the nose points the other way the wing tip will drag the ground and you"re doing a shark. From there you can do other tricks like the cartwheel.Caught 2 out of 5 on the Tekken sul yesterday. Today on the Widow and Hydra none. Practicing shark based tricks will gain you a membership into the most infamous BLEC  (broken leading edge club). There are no awards, pins ,trophies or ribbons. You do get a invoice for replaced parts that you can frame though. Plus a lot of folks sharing the trick or crash that gained them membership. I've only broke 3 doing cartwheels so far.That's a good thing.

[Exult]

11 hours ago, Breezin said:

will gain you a membership into the most infamous BLEC  (broken leading edge club). There are no awards, pins ,trophies or ribbons. You do get a invoice for replaced parts that you can frame though. Plus a lot of folks sharing the trick or crash that gained them membership. I've only broke 3 doing cartwheels so far.

🙂😄!

My subdivision of that club is more specifically the BLLEC (broken lower leading edge).

 

11 hours ago, Breezin said:

One of the simplest moves that will get your heart pounding is to reverse flight with nose spinning towards the ground not the sky. Start mid window and work your way down the window. When you get the knack (takes awhile)you'll be right on the edge of disaster. As the nose points the other way the wing tip will drag the ground and you"re doing a shark. From there you can do other tricks like the cartwheel.

Are we talking tip stabs here (or an actual sustained dragging of wing tip along the ground)? Tip stabs are my number one method to make sacrifices to the spar god. The cart wheels however I have yet to discover the devastating effect of 🙂.

The second method to do GKM (grievous kite harm) or to get involved in kite battering is to use long lines (on Fazer XL and XXL) and hence not seeing that a line is wrapped around a wing and then do an aggressive stand off snapping start.

The third way, back in the days, to feed the grim reaper of spars, was to do snap stalls when learning the trick. The unplugged (i.e. 6mm pultruded carbon fibre tubes that had no rod/end plug glued on the inside on the ends of the LS) could snap during a “keen” snap stall in mid air. (On these kites you inserted the unplugged LS tubes into the hard centre spine fitting.)

[Breezin]

Sustained dragging of the wing tip. Lucked out and haven't broke a kite doing tip stabs. Mostly do those when winds are really light and having a hard time keeping the kite in the air.Probably why. I think my Black Dog is what you describe. It uses a Ecell center tee. So did my Jet Stream Reloaded.

[Breezin]

Well luck ran out on the tip stab. Got some very high winds and rain around noon Late afternoon took out the Zephyr. Winds were staying pretty steady between 5 and 10. Still honing my 1/2 axle skills so my comete has not been very good. Caught a really good one for me. Went right back up and did another. I'm still to heavy handed and don't have the small push timing to keep the kite floating more. Result is kite comes down the window fairly fast. Landed on the wing tip. Pretty pleased. Tug and push on the top wing and pulled the bottom attempting a rotational launch.90% sure I didn't have a wrap. Thinking the tip went pretty deep into the soft ground. Got the launch a split second after the dreaded crack. If I would have launched straight up wouldn't have broke. Got to remember this when the ground is soft or on a beach.Have a spare LLE so hopefully that's all it needs and it'll be up tomorrow.