RobB Posted June 23, 2015 Report Share Posted June 23, 2015 Question... I was looking at the awesome looking Rev that's up for raffle, and noticed that it has a reinforcement patch on the leading edge mesh. Is that new standard equipment on Revs ? Has anyone retrofitted a Rev in this way ? It looks like a good solution to the problem that I have with my mid-vent, where the screen is starting to tear away in this spot. It looks like it might be pretty simple to sew a small rectangle or ripstop over the affected area... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Dowler Posted June 23, 2015 Report Share Posted June 23, 2015 Isn't that the patch at the vert?? You are correct though, many of us have used patches where the kite folds. Some have used more to shorten the distance the screen spans overall. I put 2 at the folds on my Zen. I think JB got a new set and has a total of 7?. Not sure they are needed out on the ends, but might use some near/at the center. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonfish Posted June 23, 2015 Report Share Posted June 23, 2015 Yes, that reinforcement at the vertical spar has always been there. Some of the high end Revs now have an additional similar reinforcement at the fold point. The ones I know for sure have them are the (newer) Shook meshes. I think some others have them too, but I cannot name them off the top of my head. Some people have added their own reinforcement at the fold point and center as well. I have thought about doing it myself on my full vent which is starting to have screen tears as well. However, I haven't done it yet and don't know if I will because of how I typically fold my Revs. I separate the LE sticks about 2 inches or more before I fold. It so happens that this allows the wingtips to fold over and just clear the vertical end cap of the other side. Maybe it's just me, but I find this makes a neater rolled up package. Also just a force of habit now. The reinforcement on my Shook at the fold is about 2 or 2 1/2 inches wide (I didn't actually measure it) centered near where the sticks meet. This means I can only separate the sticks just enough to make the fold in order to keep the end within the reinforcement strip. This leads me to wonder if I am causing other undue stress with the "tight" fold. The first time I folded that kite, I actually pulled the sticks apart as much as I usually do, and I noticed that the reinforcement (because it's thicker and probably also because it was new) wanted to stay flat. Thus, the fold ended up at the edge of the reinforcement and the screen, which seemed to me to be more of a stress point. So now I always make a point of folding that kite differently from the rest of my Revs so the fold stays within the reinforcement. Sorry for the long-winded second paragraph. Just something I noticed that I didn't like. So now I'm thinking of just doing the zig-zag stitch on my LE/screen. Edit: haha, must have been typing at the same time as Wayne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Dowler Posted June 23, 2015 Report Share Posted June 23, 2015 Noticed the distance thing too and adjusted a bit to get it at the correct center point of the fold! Used 2" material to make mine and will consider doing it to all my kites! PS: had the zig-zag stitch done to a couple and it has held up over several years, so I know that is an alternative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Barresi Posted June 23, 2015 Report Share Posted June 23, 2015 Wayne is correct, I have SEVEN additional reinforcements along my leading edge mesh now... Did this to all four of my new B-Pros before they were flown. Just back from Saskathewan today, but I'll post pics after I get settled in tomorrow. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul LaMasters Posted June 23, 2015 Report Share Posted June 23, 2015 Standard on the pros and shooks now, it doubles the life of your sail, you can thank me later for pushing this solution Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Barresi Posted June 23, 2015 Report Share Posted June 23, 2015 Standard on the pros and shooks now, it doubles the life of your sail, you can thank me later for pushing this solution The 7 tabs are standard on the Pros now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul LaMasters Posted June 23, 2015 Report Share Posted June 23, 2015 if not, they should be Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobB Posted June 23, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2015 I figured this might be one of the improvements on a Pro sail, but the prize kite is listed as a standard B series. Neither my mid-vent or full-vent B series have these patches, I think if they did, I wouldn't have issues with my mesh. Joanna, I also pull my LE sticks apart at least 2 inches so there isn't as much stress at the fold point. It didn't help... I was pretty upset to see that the mesh on my mid-vent is starting to tear because I tried to be extra careful with that kite after what happened to my full-vent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
northwavesailor Posted June 23, 2015 Report Share Posted June 23, 2015 We have had Bazzer add the band at the fold points on our last couple of Pro's. Don't know if it is standard issue on Pro's at this point but, as Paul, Wayne and JB have noted, it shoud be! We also had it added to our used quiver of 3 Pros so all of our Revs now have it in place. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Dowler Posted June 23, 2015 Report Share Posted June 23, 2015 I think you have to ask for it, and pay extra for it too! My friend got one in the November order before Bazzer left for Australia and he asked Bazzer directly to add them to his. It does seem to be a smart and cheap fix to make the sail (mesh) last longer! JB got his done "aftermarket" by a kitemaking friend! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
northwavesailor Posted June 23, 2015 Report Share Posted June 23, 2015 Yeah, we asked Lolly to have Bazzer add them on our last couple of Pro's and did the 'aftermarket' thing for our other Revs. Seems like a no-brainer and couldn't add much to the labor cost or materials on any Rev model, Pro or production. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul LaMasters Posted June 24, 2015 Report Share Posted June 24, 2015 On the East Coast it seems many pilots are getting these patch features added, for good reason. It take a lot of hard wear to have the trailing edge fail first, a long time (a couple of thousand hours for me as a flailer) You patch it up with bonding methods a couple of times and then,.... Eliot Shook (the doctor!) will replace the worn-thru panels with new icarex. It doesn't matter if the venting tears up top, it's not deforming the sail shape and those extra patches don't have much weight, in fact I prefer a lighter weight leading edge sleeve entirely,.... also build it tighter to the sail too, such that only one 1/4 inch diameter tube fits in there, tight. Just got a new Zen, built the way I like it, even some belt-loop styled covers over the bottom elastic knots to shed a flying line when slacking or rolling it up into the strings. These covers also separately capture the down spar so it can't wiggle left or right. Unfortunately I am about out of the mylar-backed nylon I provide for customized LEs,... anyone know of a possible source? It's the material Lam uses on his leading edges, shiny side out naturally. I'd love to acquire more of it You don't have to sew the patches on, if you want to retro-fit. All you need is some 9460 VHB tape made by 3M and a hot iron to fuse it forever. You can skip the iron but that means weights to hold position for 24 hours. Lay-out one side (say the front) from the sail to the top of the leading edge with your bonding tape affixed to the patch, fuse it, now lay the tape on the second half (or just don't expose that adhesive until necessary) and fuse it again. Right thru the screening and over the leading edge sleeve material a "U" shape. Remove the spars so you can get a it totally flat. Don't worry about pressing in a crease, that round tube will delete it shortly after the first flight! I just can't justify the weight of a 3.9 ounce dacron leading edge sleeve. I don't drag laterally inverted to launch, that's a dualie move. I do roll the sails tightly and velcro 'em closed, then see how many kites can be stuff ed into one sleeve and how many sleeves fit in a bag. I do put away wet and have never cleaned a kite sail. Guess I have designed for abuse and tested it over the decades to arrive at the point now, where I have to pay extra to get it my way and wouldn't consider it stock. I would not be against dismantling an existing kite to have it rebuilt to my specs, done that a few times too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobB Posted June 24, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 24, 2015 Hey Paul... I have a couple of those older Lam kites that have the shiny leading edges, I know exactly the material you're talking about. Unfortunately, I don't think the material is made anymore. I'm pretty sure he couldn't get any more, that's why the newer kites don't have it. I can attest to the fact that it's very durable. If I come across any, I'll let you know... 9460 VHB 3m tape, huh ? That sounds like an excellent option for me, since I don't have a sewing machine (if I did, I would probably be dangerous). Rev flying for me isn't about low weight and light winds, so any additional weight is of no consequence to me. Thank you very much for that suggestion, now all I have to do is find an iron... I will take credit for tearing the LE mesh on my full-vent, that kite's been out in the most abusive conditions, been dunked in salt water countless times, and survived a few hard landings. And yes, I too have put it away wet, and I'm sure it's never been cleaned ! More than 5 years on the full vent. The Mid vent is disappointing, though, it might be 3 years old, never sees a gust higher than 20mph, and rarely gets dunked. The LE mesh is failing only from folding the kite to put it back in the bag, and I take care not to fold & roll it too tightly. Oh, well, I'll look for the special 3m tape and see how it goes... ~Rob. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
makatakam Posted June 24, 2015 Report Share Posted June 24, 2015 Hey Paul... I have a couple of those older Lam kites that have the shiny leading edges, I know exactly the material you're talking about. Unfortunately, I don't think the material is made anymore. I'm pretty sure he couldn't get any more, that's why the newer kites don't have it. I can attest to the fact that it's very durable. If I come across any, I'll let you know... 9460 VHB 3m tape, huh ? That sounds like an excellent option for me, since I don't have a sewing machine (if I did, I would probably be dangerous). Rev flying for me isn't about low weight and light winds, so any additional weight is of no consequence to me. Thank you very much for that suggestion, now all I have to do is find an iron... I will take credit for tearing the LE mesh on my full-vent, that kite's been out in the most abusive conditions, been dunked in salt water countless times, and survived a few hard landings. And yes, I too have put it away wet, and I'm sure it's never been cleaned ! More than 5 years on the full vent. The Mid vent is disappointing, though, it might be 3 years old, never sees a gust higher than 20mph, and rarely gets dunked. The LE mesh is failing only from folding the kite to put it back in the bag, and I take care not to fold & roll it too tightly. Oh, well, I'll look for the special 3m tape and see how it goes... ~Rob. You will probably find the 3M 9460 tape in 1/4" width difficult to locate. I had a very difficult time finding a supplier, but got some cut for me by MBK Tape Solutions, 101 Canoga Ave., Chatsworth, CA 91311-3005. Their phone number is 818-998-1477. You will need to purchase a minimum of $150 of tape, but they can cut it from a master roll to any width you want, and add about $10-20 for shipping. Takes about a week to ten days to get it. I recently bought 10 rolls of 7/32" x 60 yards, that's a 32nd under 1/4", for my builds, and it's about 8 rolls more than I need. My cost was $161.30 plus $14.74 for S&H, which comes out to $17.60 per roll. If you think 7/32" will suit your purpose I can send you some at my cost + shipping. First class mail will be under $3 to continental US. I would like to recoup some of the cost to buy other supplies. Anyone interested in getting some can PM me. The tape has a shelf life of 2 years, stored in the open. I have it sealed in airtight plastic bags. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
northwavesailor Posted June 24, 2015 Report Share Posted June 24, 2015 Hey Paul... I have a couple of those older Lam kites that have the shiny leading edges, I know exactly the material you're talking about. Unfortunately, I don't think the material is made anymore. I'm pretty sure he couldn't get any more, that's why the newer kites don't have it. I can attest to the fact that it's very durable. If I come across any, I'll let you know... 9460 VHB 3m tape, huh ? That sounds like an excellent option for me, since I don't have a sewing machine (if I did, I would probably be dangerous). Rev flying for me isn't about low weight and light winds, so any additional weight is of no consequence to me. Thank you very much for that suggestion, now all I have to do is find an iron... I will take credit for tearing the LE mesh on my full-vent, that kite's been out in the most abusive conditions, been dunked in salt water countless times, and survived a few hard landings. And yes, I too have put it away wet, and I'm sure it's never been cleaned ! More than 5 years on the full vent. The Mid vent is disappointing, though, it might be 3 years old, never sees a gust higher than 20mph, and rarely gets dunked. The LE mesh is failing only from folding the kite to put it back in the bag, and I take care not to fold & roll it too tightly. Oh, well, I'll look for the special 3m tape and see how it goes... ~Rob. You will probably find the 3M 9460 tape in 1/4" width difficult to locate. I had a very difficult time finding a supplier, but got some cut for me by MBK Tape Solutions, 101 Canoga Ave., Chatsworth, CA 91311-3005. Their phone number is 818-998-1477. You will need to purchase a minimum of $150 of tape, but they can cut it from a master roll to any width you want, and add about $10-20 for shipping. Takes about a week to ten days to get it. I recently bought 10 rolls of 7/32" x 60 yards, that's a 32nd under 1/4", for my builds, and it's about 8 rolls more than I need. My cost was $161.30 plus $14.74 for S&H, which comes out to $17.60 per roll. If you think 7/32" will suit your purpose I can send you some at my cost + shipping. First class mail will be under $3 to continental US. I would like to recoup some of the cost to buy other supplies. Anyone interested in getting some can PM me. The tape has a shelf life of 2 years, stored in the open. I have it sealed in airtight plastic bags. Very cool offer, Mark! I found some 1/2" tape on Amazon that had mixed reviews, but comments from others regarding this 3M tape pointed out that it likely was old stock from the vendor as it did not stick. 60 yards may seem like a lot for folks not into buiulding kites......... but a rip in the REV screen is not pretty! Attaching the fabric at the fold points w/o sewing, BEFORE it rips is a great idea, even if you only use a fraction of a roll of this 3M tape! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul LaMasters Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 you could cover the entire patch area with stripes of bonding tape, but just the parameter edging alone should form a welded type of seam, particularly when you stick it to itself thru the mesh holes and iron it. I found a craft iron that has temp adjustments and delicate pointy little teflon-coated "foot" at Micheals. I keep it hot in a big glass beer mug when use is not required at that exact moment. Unplug as soon as you can though, so it lasts longer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
makatakam Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 You can get the craft iron at most hobby shops or on e-Bay. Make sure what you get is teflon coated, or you'll have some of the adhesive sticking to it when you're ironing it. Some also come with a "sock" that won't scratch soft shiny surfaces. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobB Posted June 26, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 26, 2015 Mark, thank you, I may take you up on that offer... I was just wondering, would insignia tape be an all-in-one solution, or would that be a short lasting fix ? I know that teldar tape has issues with sand sticking to the edges, and wonder if insignia tape would have the same issues. My big concern is that if I try an 'easy fix' that it won't last that long & I'll end up ruining the sail in the long run. If I understand correctly, the fancy 3m tape & some dacron tape strips would be the best solution ? Right now, the tears in the LE mesh on my mid-vent are only about 1" long, right at the fold points. I think my full-vent is past the point of a simple repair, as the tears in the mesh probably total over 8". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonfish Posted June 26, 2015 Report Share Posted June 26, 2015 Sorry, a little off topic, but still on the topic of screen reinforcement/repair. If I do the zig-zag stitch, should I just run it across once, or go back and forth a few times? Wayne, how were yours done? Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul LaMasters Posted June 26, 2015 Report Share Posted June 26, 2015 Mark, thank you, I may take you up on that offer... I was just wondering, would insignia tape be an all-in-one solution, or would that be a short lasting fix ? I know that teldar tape has issues with sand sticking to the edges, and wonder if insignia tape would have the same issues. My big concern is that if I try an 'easy fix' that it won't last that long & I'll end up ruining the sail in the long run. If I understand correctly, the fancy 3m tape & some dacron tape strips would be the best solution ? Right now, the tears in the LE mesh on my mid-vent are only about 1" long, right at the fold points. I think my full-vent is past the point of a simple repair, as the tears in the mesh probably total over 8". Dacron patches seem a little bit excessive to me, you just want to re-adhere the mesh, or capture the loose edges of it. Some black 1.5 ounce nylon is more than sufficient as the fabric patch material. align with the center of the fold,.. an inch on each side, might as well add one at the center of the leading edge too (burn a new hole for bridles with a hot nail of suitable size heated over a candle. I like a silver sharpie to mark the size of the hole first and a hot-tacker, slowly rotated around, melting the parameter as another option) 8 inches of tear? It is time to go to Doctor Shook for a replacement leading edge! First though, try to resurrect the dead with some patches. Put only an inch wide patch and do it a couple of times across the tear-out, equally spaced on both sides of the sail. You are just bandaging a surgical need. The doctor will remove it when you can't live with the cheap fix. You could do it yourself, but call Shook for a detailed explanation of his method as it is super trick! You could have him fabricate the replacement leading edge sleeve and sent it to you (Dugard styled repairs) for D-I-Y Tape is NOT bonding. 9460 VHS tape is created to bond two pieces of metal together. The seam is stronger than any fabric you could select. I have flown several Ryv-type kites made as no-sew projects for literally thousands of hours,.. in fact the 1point6 project was made this way, first one in 1999 with Harold Ames (kitesquid on the builder forms) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Barresi Posted June 30, 2015 Report Share Posted June 30, 2015 Here are photos of my B-Series Pro STD with leading edge reinforcements... These go on ALL of my 1.5 size Revs now, (aftermarket work) before they're ever flown. The material in these photos is some kind of webbing provided by Rod Thrall of Oregon, slightly more flexible than the Dacron I'd used on my last set of kites.Positioning of the 7 tabs:- Center (approx 2" wide)- Fold points (approx 2" wide)- Either side of fold points (approx 1" wide)Rather than going through repair work when the mesh eventually breaks down (and it still will), I'll be adding 1/2" tabs centered in each of the remaining gaps so that when the mesh is too bad, I'll just cut it out and leave negative (empty) space instead. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
makatakam Posted June 30, 2015 Report Share Posted June 30, 2015 (edited) Here are photos of my B-Series Pro STD with leading edge reinforcements... These go on ALL of my 1.5 size Revs now, (aftermarket work) before they're ever flown. The material in these photos is some kind of webbing provided by Rod Thrall of Oregon, slightly more flexible than the Dacron I'd used on my last set of kites. Positioning of the 7 tabs: - Center (approx 2" wide) - Fold points (approx 2" wide) - Either side of fold points (approx 1" wide) Rather than going through repair work when the mesh eventually breaks down (and it still will), I'll be adding 1/2" tabs centered in each of the remaining gaps so that when the mesh is too bad, I'll just cut it out and leave negative (empty) space instead. I see by this that you eventually end up with a "belt loop" style leading edge, only with the LE spar fully enclosed by the sleeve, which just gave me an idea that I will incorporate into my new design. I am going to call this design the "H2 EXTREME". The sail will fit a 1.5 frame, but will have 400 square inches more sail area and weigh in at 4 ounces, total weight. The kite is designed from the "ground up" and all components of the kite, except the frame, have been designed from scratch. Here's a drawing of it: Feel free to move this if you think it should be elsewhere. Edited July 1, 2015 by makatakam ADMIN: Will only move this post if it expands into a sub-discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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