Reef Runner

.........and eat a big breakfast !

True, true............all true. (And speaking of a better wheel (tire), Goodyear works on that, every weekend !) As for the downwind / stability issue, I was assuming, that the FlowForm would indeed be symmetrical (it's supposed to be new, or recently purchased), and stable, with the use of a drogue or tail of some sort. And pilot moving downwind, faster than the wind speed - I have a hard time visualizing that, with a typical SUP, as seen in the videos. I agree, this should be an interesting project, and will surely be a learning process for Guy. I hope he will share with us, the final results, in particular, the "automatic control". I believe that's the key point, that we are all missing

Looks great................I had similar plans for the lake today, but no wind............

Hey Scott.............Congratulations ! You WON !!!!

I don't know, but I'm not going to wait much longer. John hasn't been online since yesterday, so I'm thinking he had something to come up, or he forgot the drawing.............

Me either..............5 9 0 right ?

5 - 9 - 0

All true - I understand tacking from sailing, and I realize what is going on with kite surfing, but these sails & kites are maneuverable, via rudders, keels, and/or control lines. A "single line kite", on a single line, and a FlowForm kite at that, is not readily maneuverable. Theoretically, the SLK is going to find a downwind point, and basically that's where it will stay. In addition, as you have pointed out, this style SLK, definitely needs some sort of "drag stabilizer", in order to fly steady and reliably. I can surely see how, with a fin (i.e. centerboard / keel), Guy may be able to maneuver a SUP out 45 - 50 degrees, possibly even 90 degrees, to either side of the downwind force (pull), but once he passes that point, and he tries to point that SUP upwind, which in this case would be opposite to his driving (pulling) force, it seems to me that either the kite is going to pull him off of the SUP, or, well, I think it's simply going to pull him off balance, and into the water. Nothing that I can visualize, is going to make a SLK kite, come around and fly with it's back to the wind, nor is it going to pull him into the wind. There will surely have to be some kind of multi-line control adapted to the kite, for this to happen, and I'm not so sure that the FlowForm, is the kite for this application. "Collapse", comes to mine. Also, as you have mentioned, kite surfing has already been invented, is quite controllable, and tacking into the wind is done all the time, just as in sailing, but again, that sail is quite maneuverable, via the control lines. All the mystery and kinks have already been worked out. Sounds to me like Guy may be trying to "re-invent" the wheel, and adapt it to the SUP. I hope he succeeds, and I surely don't mean to doubt his theory. There is obviously much more to this endeavor, than he has shared with us. I would really like to see how this will all work, and I would love to see him perfect this idea / theory, but with what little information that we have, I still have a hard time seeing it happen, without a different kind of kite, and without one that is easily maneuverable. And if this is the case, why not use a simple two line foil, such as the small Prism Snapshot, or something similar. Even a simple dualie, rigged on short lines, and rigged to float, seems to be much more maneuverable than any kind of single line kite which pulls downwind only..............I'm perplexed, for sure.

Very kewl kite (Ultrafoil 15), if I could just find the time, the wind, and the appropriate place, to put it in the air, and not totally destroy it in a tree !

Yes, I agree about the 90*......... it's probably a bit more than 45* to either side, in actuality, but 60* (?). That's a wide wind window, and I would think that's really pushing it to the limit of the window, for sure ! As for flying a kite upwind, I agree with you, I don't see how this can be accomplished, in any way (?) I too, would like to see this, and look forward to seeing the completion of Guy's project ! As for my "sailing" vs "kite flying" analogy (and theoretically speaking), I always like to tell newbies (especially those that have sailed), that the 90*, where you CAN NOT sail a boat (to windward), is the same 90* where you CAN fly a kite (to leeward), if you turn your back to that "same wind", that you couldn't sail in. Just my simple analogy ! You really can, find just about anything, on the Internet ! The diagram above shows the kiting "Wind Window" - the pink and tan areas. These represent the area where your kite should be able to perform best. The pink area is where your kite is directly in the winds path, this area will give you the greatest amount of pull if you are flying a traction/power kite; or the best control and speed if you are flying a stunt/sport kite. The tan areas are where the kite will start to decrease in power or slow down. Turns are usually done in the Tan area as well as launching and landing your kite. The edge (grey area) of the "Wind Window" is at the end of the Tan area and is where the least amount of wind is on the kite. The exact location of the edge of the wind window will vary depending on the style of kite you are flying. Usually when a kite approaches the grey area or edge, it will begin to "luft" or "stall", causing the kite to drop out of the air. If this happens, you may have to take a couple quick steps backwards to bring your kite back into the tan area, allowing you to turn your kite and continue flying.

That's a mighty gracious gesture, on your part, there Nick ! Now, let me think about that for a minute Hmmmm! I think.......... N O T

Being a sailor, I don't exactly understand, what you mean (?). When sailing a boat, you can sail towards the wind, but only 45 degrees to either side, and all the way around (270 degrees), from one upwind point, to the other. BUT, when flying a kite, you can only fly in the 90 degrees, directly downwind (45 degrees to either side). Possibly, I don't clearly understand what you mean by, "45° of the wind (upwind as well as downwind)"

Ok, now I understand what you are doing. I also see, from looking at your "kite" videos, that it's pretty evident, that the FlowForm is much more stable, "with" the tail attached. I see why you don't want a very long tail, but from what I understand, the drogue, which could be tied off short, would most likely offer even more stability to your FlowForm, than a simple streamer, or tube tail. I would have to agree with Scott, also, in that the drogue (a single drogue) could serve as a stuff sack for the sail, which if packed properly, should be simple to launch from the deck of the SUP. (Just my 2 cents) The part that I don't understand, is how you plan on incorporating "auto-steering"..............but I suppose that's a big part of the project. Keep us informed.............very interesting, and good luck.

You woke up ! Welcome back Baloo !!!

Triple Naught, eh ?

Yep, sorry, that's what I meant. I read where it could be staked out, so I assumed that meant as a SLK ! My mistake...... Still, very kool to be able to stake it !

Not sure why you are opposed to using a tail, of some type, but the earlier statement that I posted, came directly from the Gomberg website, and it was specifically directed at the FlowForm. "Flowforms are stable and remarkably gentle for their size. Remember to add your own drogue, spinning windsock or our exclusive Sutton Streamers" Just curious, what size FlowForm do you have ? Is is an old one ? I didn't think that the FlowForm was being made, any longer ??

Hang in there John.............

I think it goes both ways.................DLK or SLK ! Kinky, eh??? :cat_lol:

There you go !.............good luck (kinda) Thanks for the tip No Problem.............

There you go !.............good luck (kinda)

You gotta post "I'm In", under the Karma topic, that's going on now. This is just the original rules and guidelines topic, that was posted back when we began............ Go to: http://kitelife.com/forum/topic/5629-karma-102913-10-inflatable-airplane-kite/#entry39107 for the current drawing ! And good luck..............

This is what Dave Gomberg says about tuning, on big Foils, Sleds, etc: Pilot Tuning? Lines and fabric may change after a few first flights -- like a new pair of shoes settes in with wear. For simple "field tuning", I simply gather all the lines in one hand. I adjust the bottom row until the kite is flying straight. Then adjust the top to orient for lift. Then remove the slack from any other lines. I tie a knot in all the lines, connect a flying line, and send it up to see how the adjustment worked. If correct, I just cut off all the loose bits. Same works for SkyForms. He specifically says about the Sutton Flowforms: Flowforms are stable and remarkably gentle for their size. Remember to add your own drogue , spinning windsock or our exclusive Sutton Streamers.

I'm IN ! Lucky # 7

Replacement(s) INCOMING ! Just checked UPS tracking info - "On Vehicle for Delivery Today" - Shhhhhhhhhh!