Winding up lines

[povlhp]

One question about line windings. I wind my quad line pairwise. Ensures I will have no issues.

What do people here say to the idea of starting to wind up lines from one handle to the kite, break down kite, wind down the other set of lines ? Then I will save one trip. Of course the lines will be winded up each their direction, but I don't think it really would matter ? And if you always connect to the right handle first, you will switch the lines left/right every time, distributing wear a bit more. And also switch the order the are winded.

The only risk/issue I see in this is, that when winding up the first set (unwinding the 2nd set), you only have partial control over that side. The front line will still be shorter the the 2-3 inches that is the size of the loop you larknot it to. But apart from that, I would consider it much better for distributing tear and wear.

[Paul LaMasters]

May I recommend you unwind to a well-placed stake instead of directly to the kite? Don't affix to the kite until all four lines are laid out, straight and tight. Place the handle you want to use in your right hand,... on the left side (with the thumbs pointed inside and the handles pulled as far apart as you can possibly reach)... Setting up inverted will straighten out everything when you are ready for flight. I put colored electrical tape on the right handle so it's easy to identify laying on the ground.

You can check for any line length adjustments that might be necessary while you have 'em fetched-up tight against the stake, insuring you don't need a "front end alignment" prior to taking the race-kite out on the track!

You might need two stakes if you don't use the sissy sticks, so what. make it work for you. Myself? I have lots of handles so I just wind-up lines onto them directly. Pinch all four lines into a group. I pull the leaders down into the handles space between the grips, the tops first. Pinch 'em into position and then grab the bottom lines, again pulling them into the gap and holding them in place. Now carefully wind all four lines like winding an electric motor. go forward once and backwards once almost the entire length of the foam grips, tightly wrapping each around pass, then pull the lines in between the grips, locking all those windings down. Go back to winding again, one lap forward and one backwards, then pull in-between, repeat until you get to the end of the kite or stake.

Whatever works for you, there's no one solution,..... it's a destination, not following one specified path.

[povlhp]

... Now carefully wind all four lines like winding an electric motor. go forward once and backwards once almost the entire length of the foam grips, tightly wrapping each around pass, then pull the lines in between the grips, locking all those windings down. Go back to winding again, one lap forward and one backwards, then pull in-between, repeat until you get to the end of the kite or stake.

...

This I can't really picture. Getting things through the grips is OK. But go forward and backwards makes no sense to me.

[Paul LaMasters]

you are winding towards one end of the foam (say the top-most edge) and then back the other way (towards the bottom end of the foam), trapping the lines into the center gap so they can't come off prematurely between each two part reversal.

Pinch all four lines into a group and pull that group tightly around and around the handles, laying each wrap directly next to the previous wrap, like an electric motor wire is wrapped.

Wind 'em onto the handles and wind them back off, one wrap at a time,..... each way, don't expect the lines to fall off of the "spooled handles" freely by themselves.

[makatakam]

I'm having trouble understanding this too, Paul. Picture time?

[Reef Runner]

I'm having trouble understanding this too, Paul. Picture time?

Not that I have a problem winding my lines (I don't), but I can definitely see the delima, in picturing this, especially without pics.........

With all due respect, Paul, I likewise, do not understand clearly, your description of winding onto the handles.

Povlhp..........look at the Kitelife video............http://kitelife.com/forum/videos/view-41-rev-tutorial-line-management/

Look at it again, and then look at it again. Now that you have looked at it...........Look at it one more time.

Now, go out in the yard and practice what you saw. Nothing helps more than doing it..........

Don't wait till you are out on the flight deck to practice...........that's for flying !

Also, you may want to read my post #15 I'm just a rookie, but I can wind and unwind my lines......NO PROBLEM

Take a peek..................http://kitelife.com/forum/topic/5347-winding-up-lines/page-2#entry35006

And please, I'm not disagreeing with anything that Paul has said, but, everyone has to develop their own, unique, method.

There is no real, "perfect wind" method...........figure it out and make it your own !

[hyzakite]

Paul is referring to the method of wrapping your lines directly to the pair of handles, instead of a card, when wrapping the lineset you wrap around the handles but only on the foam part of the handles working your way to the kite, as you wrap, you wind from the top of the foam to the bottom of the foam, once you get to the bottom you work your way back up to the top like a spool or fishing reel until you get close enough to the kite then set the handles down to remove the lines from the kite one side at a time, pairing the tops and bottoms as usual, once the lefts and rights are paired off, finish winding the lineset onto the handles, as you finish winding you finish near the top of the foam then force the ends of the lines between the to handle's 2 foam grips.

When winding stop about 1/2" from the top of the foam each time your get near the top and start back in the other direction, leave the 1/2" of foam at the top to tuck the ends of your lines into. You don't want to wrap onto the metal as you can't tuck the ends of your lineset between the foam to secure the lines.

When you unwind during setup it's reverse of what you did during breakdown, you pull out 8' to 10" of line from the handles, attach the lines to the kite and unwind the rest of the line and you should be ready to fly. I've seen this method used mostly on sand.

I do have one setup like this but the lines did pop out of the foam, looks like a bit of a mess and needs to be carefully unwound.

All my other linesets/4 lines are wound onto one card from the kite to the handles at the stake, handles stay on the card.

povlhp......Every year or so I'll switch my lines from end to end as the wear point/where the 4 lines contact each other when flying, is closer to the handles than the kite,

more often I'll switch tops to bottoms maybe twice a year,

but never worry about switching lefts to rights as that happens whenever.

[Reef Runner]

Out of sheer interest, I continue to read this topic, simply because I'm always interested in the different methods that people use, to wind and secure their lines. Since beginning with quad line kites, I have heard several people mention this method, of winding lines directly onto the handles. I have never understood it, and I have just finished reading two, detailed descriptions of this method, posted by two well respected Kitelife members, yet still, I'm not getting it.

Once again, I am not looking for help, nor am I contemplating changing my winding method, as I clearly have my own madness engrained in my mind, and I wouldn't dare try to change that clear image, at this point. Just to be clear, I've used JB's standard tutorial method for years, with a few personal quirks thrown in, and it has served me well, so far, and just as JB mentions somewhere, it's unually "three minutes out, and three minutes in".

The only reason that I even comment again, is that I am trying to put myself in povlhp's place, and I am likewise trying to comprehend this, "winding directly onto the handles" method, and it's still just not coming through, not clear enough to give it a try, anyway. I think that the old saying, "a picture is worth a thousand words", would be appropriate here. If anyone has a video, or just a few good photos of this procedure, I'm sure it would be quite helpful to those that may be trying to follow this method. Even a single picture of a completely wound set of lines, might help.

Again, it's just not coming through, loud & clear

[Wayne Dowler]

As someone with a lot more sets of lines than handles, I just use a card winder and remove handles every time. I use 3 lengths of handles and use any of them I feel appropriate for the day. Same with lines. I might be on the beach one day and limited in space at a park the next. Too many combos for me to afford a set of handles for every different line set.

On the subject of winding each pair separately on one winder - I would suggest using 2 different winds for each pair. I used to use a straight wind for the first set and a figure 8 wind for the second set. That kept both sets independent of each other.

But I eventually started using John's winding method, starting on a short set for practice and going longer as I gained confidence in the method! I, also like Nick, have a few personal changes to the system, but use all the same theories, every time. And to me that's the key - find what works for YOU and DO IT EVERY TIME THE SAME!

[Paul LaMasters]

hold both handles in one hand, aligned and snugged next to each other.

Grab the top two lines with your free hand and pull them under the fingers of the hand gripping the handles,

pull 'em tight and hold them in position with the lines pinched under your fingers and then head back towards the top of the handles (you've pulled 'em down, now they are going back up again) still pinched under your finger tips.

Next grab the two bottom flying line leaders and pull them into the center between the grip foam also, pinched under your fingers and following the same path as the top lines.

All four lines are now held (under your finger tips with both handles in one hand) and the four lines are pointed towards the the handle tops.

Wrap all four lines around the handles and keep wrapping, as you place each wrap make certain it is against the previous one in position. The wrappings should be tight and also "capture" the stuff held under your finger tips as you go around and round again.

Do one lap forward (to within a half inch of the foam handles' outer edge) and one lap backwards,...

then pull all four lines in between the foam grips at the top and the bottom ends, pulling it tight so it locks all those line wrappings down.

repeat forward and backward wrappings again, together with the lock-down between technique, until you get with a foot or so of the kite.

lay the handles down on the ground and remove one side of flying lines from the bridle. Larkshead the top and bottoms together (on each side) and pull the leftover lengths afterwards between the foam grips (a few laps until you get to the end).

Next time, when you set-up, use a stake and place both larks-headed pairs over that well-placed stake. Unwrap, again with tension on the lines (just like you used wrapping up, above) Don't try to "feed" the line off of the handles as coiled towards the stake. You wrapped it on, you unwrap it the same way! Now is a grand time to see if you need any adjustments to your flying lines or leaders. Since the lines are staked down and the handles are affixed, yanked both handles back tightly (the left handle should be tested in your right hand) and see if they align perfectly,... no, not close enough, but perfect. If not perfect you need a front-end alignment. Adjust leaders, move or add knots ,maybe you need to switch one line with another's position due to stretching?

When satisfied everything is neutral, separate the handles as far apart as you can reach and drop them onto the ground, keeping tension on the lines and place your thumb ends inside, facing each other. Now go set-up the kite & affix the lines to the bridle. The outside lines (all four go to one common point, the stake) are the bottoms and the inside two lines are the tops. Set-up inverted as the handles were switched in position while setting-up or testing your neutral, remember?

I have lots more line sets than handles as well. I have enough handles though, that the most commonly used line lengths and line strengths are ready to go all the time. They should be close to perfectly aligned and tuned too, since they are more or less permanent. I carry 175#/120s (13 inch), 2-sets 100#/120s(15 inch) 50#/100s(15 inch) 50#/120s (Ti handles) 100#/22s (indoor mini handles), 100#/65s (extended)

I will try to get get some images pulled together "soon" so this is easier to comprehend.

[makatakam]

Okay, I've got it now. I have done this before, but without the "lock" wraps. I understand how that is better than just wrapping back and forth. I did it for a while, but didn't like the semi-permanent impressions the strands of line put into the foam on the handles. I found them annoying as I was flying. I am back to using the winder, wrapping all four lines at once.

I tire quickly nowadays, so I avoid the second trip out to the kite. I stake the handles down at the flying end and take the kite with me, still rolled up, as I unwrap the lines. Then I set up the kite and attach the lines, go back to the handles and fly.

[Reef Runner]

I tire quickly nowadays, so I avoid the second trip out to the kite. I stake the handles down at the flying end and take the kite with me, still rolled up, as I unwrap the lines. Then I set up the kite and attach the lines, go back to the handles and fly.

Check ! Less time walking back and forth, equals more time flying That's my procedure for setting up, exactly.

When I take down, I land inverted, stake the handles (actually I then remove the handles, loop the pairs, and then stake the paired loops). I then go to the kite, disconnect the lines, loop the pairs and lay them out on the ground, side by side I then disassemble the kite, roll it up, tuck it under my arm, and then I proceed to wrap my lines, on a single winder, back to the stake. Again, saves another trip...............

[hyzakite]

1.Take out of bag 2. spread apart 3. unwind. 4. Fly. 5. Wind 6. bring the kites together. 7. put back in bag.

The lines and handles stay connected to the stack always. But these are 240# 76' lines not use for other kites.

[makatakam]

I tire quickly nowadays, so I avoid the second trip out to the kite. I stake the handles down at the flying end and take the kite with me, still rolled up, as I unwrap the lines. Then I set up the kite and attach the lines, go back to the handles and fly.

Check ! Less time walking back and forth, equals more time flying That's my procedure for setting up, exactly.

When I take down, I land inverted, stake the handles (actually I then remove the handles, loop the pairs, and then stake the paired loops). I then go to the kite, disconnect the lines, loop the pairs and lay them out on the ground, side by side I then disassemble the kite, roll it up, tuck it under my arm, and then I proceed to wrap my lines, on a single winder, back to the stake. Again, saves another trip...............

Ditto!

[makatakam]

1.Take out of bag 2. spread apart 3. unwind. 4. Fly. 5. Wind 6. bring the kites together. 7. put back in bag.

The lines and handles stay connected to the stack always. But these are 240# 76' lines not use for other kites.

You mean: 1. Find bag? Right? 2.Take out of..............

[hyzakite]

All and all, my mostly used method, is the method of winding from the 2nd post's video back on page 1 in this topic, and is the only method I would suggest to others. I don't understand the whys of using 2 winders for 1 kite!

[Paul LaMasters]

Want less walking?, go to magic sticks!

[122333]

I tried the method displayed in JB's video and had massive tangles that I spent 20+ minutes getting rid of. It looked like one of my right lines somethow tangled into the left lines.

Any ideas on what I can do to ensure this doesn't happen? I'm sure it was something I did but not sure what to try to avoid next time. I'd like to wind the two pairs of lines together at the same time to avoid walking back and forth so much, but I'm not sure how to avoid one pair of lines from intertwining with the other as what happened to me before.

What I currently do is use one winder, but wrap one set of lines at a time and that has worked out much better. Usually just a couple of twists to work out in each handle and then good to go.

My lines are marked so I know what's what

• left set: white top, black bottom
• right set: white/red top, black/red bottom

[makatakam]

The trick is to keep tension in the lines as you check for twists. Most of what looks like twists are merely wraps that will unwrap under tension. You should have no more than 1 or 2 actual twists in the line, which are quite simple to undo. Sometimes when you set up brand new lines you may have 3 or 4, or you may find that one pair somehow managed to slip in between the other pair, but again, these are fairly easy to get rid of. If you let the lines go slack and try to get rid of what appears to be twists and tangles you will end up with spaghetti every time.

Watch the line management video several times and use this method religiously. It has been proven over time and that's because it works. Just be careful not to twist and cross the pairs through each other when you are handling the lines and you'll be fine. Watch closely in the video and you will see that John keeps the lines in pretty much the same orientation to each other as they are when connected to the kite as he winds/unwinds them. As long as each pair (left, right) is connected to itself at the ends and the ends are not slipped through each other, what appears to be a bunch of twists is not really there.

Again, and I can't stress this point enough, watch the "Line Management" video several times and do it that way. The part where he "waggles" the handle is so you can figure out which handle is connected to which side of the kite. Wrong side? Put that handle in the other hand.

And, by the way, welcome to the forum if I haven't already said hi to you. Believe me, we all went through the same learning process. I spent over an hour one time untangling lines that probably weren't tangled in the first place, but it sure LOOKED like they were.

Edit: There are lots of Rev flyers in Washington, probably more than any other state. Get together with one or more of them at their home field or at a festival, and you will learn more in one day than you would in a year on your own. PM someone near you and fly with them. Kiteflyers are a friendly bunch and always eager to help someone who's just starting out.

[122333]

Just be careful not to twist and cross the pairs through each other when you are handling the lines and you'll be fine. Watch closely in the video and you will see that John keeps the lines in pretty much the same orientation to each other as they are when connected to the kite as he winds/unwinds them. As long as each pair (left, right) is connected to itself at the ends and the ends are not slipped through each other, what appears to be a bunch of twists is not really there.

Can you elaborate a bit on this? I think this is maybe how I crossed one of my right lines and it ended up getting tangled into the left set of lines. When putting the lines away, I start at the kite, tie the tops to the bottoms, then hold the two sets of lines together and begin to wrap around the winder. Should I be maintaining constant tension in the lines with the stake and my hands? I have currently let it go really slack but pull it tight around the winder with my hand, maybe that's the issue? I'll watch the video and pay attention to JB's winding and the tension but not sure if it's that clear so thought I'd ask. Thanks for the help. I'll reach out to the fliers in my area as well.

[RobB]

As far as the tangles in the lines... I just roll my lines out, hook them to the kite & fly a little. If there seem to be any wraps, I just try to fly them out, or as close as possible. Sometimes the handles have individual twists... I just land and spin the affected handle. To me, it's not worth the time on the ground trying to figure how to get the lines perfectly straight & untangled.

I follow the Line Management tutorial pretty closely, with the exception of the straight wrap vs. the Figure 8 wrap.

[povlhp]

Had issues as well, so now do one set at a time. Works every time.

On my power kite with stiffer lines I just para pack. That is stuff the lines inside the bag.

[makatakam]

Just be careful not to twist and cross the pairs through each other when you are handling the lines and you'll be fine. Watch closely in the video and you will see that John keeps the lines in pretty much the same orientation to each other as they are when connected to the kite as he winds/unwinds them. As long as each pair (left, right) is connected to itself at the ends and the ends are not slipped through each other, what appears to be a bunch of twists is not really there.

Can you elaborate a bit on this? I think this is maybe how I crossed one of my right lines and it ended up getting tangled into the left set of lines. When putting the lines away, I start at the kite, tie the tops to the bottoms, then hold the two sets of lines together and begin to wrap around the winder. Should I be maintaining constant tension in the lines with the stake and my hands? I have currently let it go really slack but pull it tight around the winder with my hand, maybe that's the issue? I'll watch the video and pay attention to JB's winding and the tension but not sure if it's that clear so thought I'd ask. Thanks for the help. I'll reach out to the fliers in my area as well.

When you tie top line to bottom you are creating a loop. If you slip the other pair through (in between) the loop, at the handle end you will find that both lines on one handle go in between the lines on the other handle. If you do it with one line of the pair then you will have to untie one line from the handle to uncross them. But we're making rocket science out of kite lines here. Simply follow the procedure outlined in the video, and do it EXACTLY the same way each time and your problems will disappear.

[povlhp]

I had issues the first few times. Never tried to fly it out. But switched to winding up the linesets one at a time.

With my new PowerKite (Peter Lynn Hornet III, 3.0m2) I did a parapack after the first flight, and they cam out without any issues on my 2nd flight. But this is due to the much stiffer lines. They will not tangle if you just stuff them down in the bag in nice loops (but my Rev lines will use any chance).

Also considered winding the lines while still connected to the Rev. That is, remove spars, roll up kite, collect lines/bridles in center, and use a winder, leaving 20 inches slack to work with. Then pack everything connected. But did not try that yet. I have 2 kites, one good set of handles. And I have not started using my 2nd lineset yet.

For my PowerKite I do not need handles/lines for another kite.

[Guest LeeBB]

I’m New, But I have not had a single problem with anything.  The way I put My kite  Up is.  I just undo the line from the bridal, I then walk back to my staked straps or handle while winding the kite line up, just around and around no criss cross stuff.  I keep a finger between the lines while I wind up the line.  There will be twist once you arrive at your straps.  Unstake straps then remove any twist.  Hope this helps.