Beginners tips and tricks

[povlhp]

It is years since I last saw kites, apart from 2 children playing with one last summer in too little wind, running to keep it up. So I have not been with other kite flyers. Supposedly there is a one day festival in town every year (2nd largest city here in Denmark). And I see kites when we go to the west coast of Denmark, as that is the perfect place for wind related activity (paragliding, Windsurfing, kiting etc).

So I am on my own. This is why I ordered a cheap ($30 incl. shipping) 3 meter aka 10 ft delta I can hopefully put up when I play with the quad, and a 1.8 meter eagle SLK for my 7 y.o. + a 2 line $10 parachute type (flies OK for the money, but too little pressure in side cells). Also have a winged dual-box kite waiting at the post office.

Hope some kites in the air will get more people interested in kiting. And if they can get started with cheaper but good enough chinese kites (the newbie will be hesitant to pay $210 which the EXP costs around here. But $100 for an OK chinese Quad might be acceptable), even dual lines or SLK, then the sport will be richer. And even if they just gets a cheap one for the child to run around with in the park, some positive energy will come out of it.

Chinese kites bought online will often enter the country without any VAT and taxes being charged. And at a few percent import tax + 25% sales tax (VAT) adds 30% to the cost of products sold by resellers. That gives a disadvantage to local and US products (everything from the US is inspected in customs).

Talked to a friend at work, who also has 2 boys, his only experience was a kite too small to fly in anything but very windy conditions, so no success.

The eagle SLK my boy got flew very nicely in a light breeze. So he want more. And the Mickey Mouse kite that would climb when walking in the light wind (but spin down in high wind) was also great fun. So he looks forward to getting out again.

Maybe I can influence the largest supermarket chain in Denmark to get some quality kites with decent low wind limit on the shelves for next year. I work there in IT department.

[povlhp]

Here are the Transeye next to a Rev-like kite.

One thing to note is, that there is visible more sail outside of the line attachment points / vertical rod, thus much less sail inside the rod that can be loaded (whump). The half length rod at side side probably is there for a reason, helping to get more material in from of the LE rod than what could be accomplished with the vertical alone. Maybe the edge rod will allow 2 smaller (and thus not so deep) whump areas ? But it seems to have less of that effect than the Rev.

The Transeye is around 220 grams, and the Rev-like 190 with rods. So I guess there is more material and thus area in the Transeye. Or maybe the plastic material is a bit heavier as well.

But the conclusion is, that they are very different.

And no matter what, I prefer the colors of some of the Rev alternatives, and find the sail design better looking. The Colorizer on the revotes site does show much nicer colors (yellow, orange, red) than I have ever seen on any kite for sale. Like more colors than the boring default ones. The yellow/orange/red/white used on one of the popular youtube videos are probably the best looking Rev I have seen. But taste is individual. Some people want subdued, I always liked colors, and the parachute I bought new, I created with power colors.

Waiting for good weather. Today was rainy, 25-40 MPH. A bit on the high end and gusty for a beginner on a Quad. One forecast promises the same sunday (tomorrow worse 30-50 MPH), another says 14-28 MPH. So still hoping. The are liars, politicians, and then meteorologists.

[RobB]

Anyone here have a link to my best explanation of "whump? I did a search but couldn't come up with a good one.

You can see plenty of 'whump' in your latest videos... a picture is worth 1,000 words, a video must be worth more !

[Wayne Dowler]

Weight - plus or minus - is not the main thing in Revs. Well placed weight will help performance in some cases. The difference you found might be due to different frame rods, etc, but not likely due to a larger area. Looking at the pic, looked like the rev type was bigger if anything.

A word on winds - using the wrong kite in the wrong winds will only result in damage of some type. Most you can see - broken rods, torn sails. But sometimes you can't see it - like pulled seams or worse a stretched sail. Stretched sails never return to their original shapes, but keep that shape for ever. I know about this, as my light wind Rev SUL was the only 1.5 size kite I had for a while. I pushed it into inappropriate winds and of course the sail suffered for it. You'll notice on the Rev site, that most of the models, (B, SLE, B pro), all have several versions to choose from. Many of us have all the versions to choose from! We match up the sail for that day with the conditions we face! I understand you are a new flier to quads, but don't be fooled into using the "wrong" kite just because you feel the need to fly. Putting up that wrong kite might be worse than putting up no kite at all.

[povlhp]

I would not go out with a rev outside recommendations I find.

Here we have gusts to twice the average wind speed most of the time. It is safe to fly a standard in 12 mph gusting to 22-24 ? It is not spec'ed above 20. But 12 is in the middle of the specs for 2+3 wrap.

The Transeye likes more wind. So for now I can use that on the upper end until I decide I need something vented. Or ply with SLK. Got a double box with wings. Supposedly fine to 20+ mph. Wind: 2-5.

[Wayne Dowler]

Printed numbers mean nothing to me anymore. With experience comes the knowledge of using the right sail for the conditions! I suffered a stroke many years ago, and am one of the first to use something vented if the winds come up. Personally don't like the "pull". So having the choice of many sail types works for me!

I think what I was getting at, was that using say a full sail in too high winds, will make it very hard to really learn anything, because you're just struggling to stay airborne!

If in deed the gusts are that big, be prepared to either fly out to the edge and/or land to survive them. In those winds, most of us are already using a midvent. Much better equipped to handle gusts due to the venting!

[povlhp]

I was out sunday. Pretty gusty. 2-10 m/s (4-20 mph), averaging 6 m/s (12 mph).

First I started breaking a rod/tube in a Chinese double box SLK. These chinese "composite" break-easy tubes really spoils the deal for some of the cheap chinese stuff. This kite is around $25, and a copy of a Gomberg that costs $40. So the Gomberg is probably a better deal after calculating in the cost of new fiberglass gods. The kite is listed as 2-6 Wind, which goes up to 13.8 m/s aka 31 MPH . Did not have that even in the gusts.

Flying the Transeye was much better with wind. But sometimes the wind got too strong, and I just landed it. With the extra wind, I could take of and fly without problems with the front lines attached all the way out. The gusts made it difficult though. I could hold it in place for a sec or so, then a gust would come and start movement. Then the wind would bleed off, and I would have difficulties even performing simple turns, without braking to almost the stall point.

Very few hard impacts, many nicer landings. A few upside down, I easily turned over.

But a much better and more fun session today.

In the end the gusting and general wind picked up as a new rain shower approached. Did the Barresi line management as per video. But, what do you guys do with the kite in windy condition.While I was wrapping up lines, it started to move and fly a little. Do you bring something heavy to put on top of it ? Or an extra spike to hold the kite ? Or do you all fly low wind only ?

[Paul LaMasters]

Safety:

You should land a quad so it drives into the ground naturally (forward), or in other words,... you place the leading edge direction pointed into the ground (for safety). It can be held in a rigid position on the ground without your intervention (inverted, nestled into the soil) with a tent stake or a phillips screwdriver

If the kite doesn't want to balance in one position (hover) there's really no point in using four lines on a framed kite, ouch, so sorry!

You have to "tune for neutral", with the handle leaders having adjustment knots closely spaced together and the appropriate bridle working in unison to tame the beast. When the kite has a proper neutral and a decent amount of wind it can balance on one finger of your hand, stationary. With enough experience you get to decide where this balance point shall be placed for your own ultimate comfort on your equipment.

The kite only goes forward if you allow it to (that's the natural direction generally that the it wants to go, forward, not "up"). In higher wind or for that matter, any time you make an adjustment to the tuning,... ADD down first (more brakes, shorten the bottoms or lengthening the top leader knot position) and see if that is an improvement in flight dynamics.

NOT my recommended first choice with a stack though, HA!

The bridle should distribute the forces of wind in a controlled manner.

Here's an example, My friend Dave Ashworth makes great flying indoor kites, a fart in church light air worthy! Sometimes the frame is so flexible in en effort to control overall weight that the frame distorts when given an sharp command. Well that's what's happening to you in higher wind on the Transeye. The frame is being distorted in sudden gusts (or from your sharp commands) Dave's solution indoors was to add a long, no an outrageously long bridle (to an indoor kite, what?) Outdoors you can play with tuning quick and cheap though, but a stiffer whilst still being a light weight frame is why the most widely recognized brand in quad builds their own tubes in-house.

If the frame members and connecting ferrules are both hollow, you could try fitting a single piece slim carbon tube inside to add more strength. I've used this technique but it was on a kite 6 pack stack designed by Harold Ames to have this function available (in case of higher wind or if you wanted to double-stack 'em)

* * * If you don't have adjustment leaders on your handles, that is your first step. little tiny adjustments on each end, top and bottoms, not an inch all at once either, but 3/8s or less. This allows for a front-end alignment on your race car. You can tune a neutral so the kite goes straight, unless you tell it to do otherwise.

* * * The flying lines that are connecting you to the kite are like a set of tires on your race car. They can ruin a great time if they aren't right for the current conditions! Too worn, too stretchy, too uneven,... just not the right stuff.

* * * Drop all four flying lines when affixed to your flying handles and pull them tightly against a stationary fence post or a well-placed tent stake, screwdriver. All four lines to one point with no tangles or nesting back to the handles. Pull the handles tightly with them squeezed next to each other & perfectly aligned. As you slowly give slack, sight down the top lines towards the stake, like an archer. If they are properly tuned one line will NOT show slack before the other! Go ahead and visualize it several times, rotate and test the bottoms too. Check the handle alignment and see which one is the longer line. You have to make 'em match. Not "close or that's good enough",... no PERFECT. Use the knot leaders or add an overhand knot directly into the flying line that is longer. Whatever you need to do!, if you fly without making this perfect alignment your kite will pull (towards one side of the race track speedy) unless you constantly adjust your technique to compensate.

Okay the lines are even and the handles are tuned to neutral and they align perfectly, next?

Now you need to set up the kite inverted (forward direction is flying into the ground) and affix the flying lines. You "tune" for neutral flight by adjusting DOWN/reverse/brakes (shorten the bottom leader flying line position or lengthen the tops) until the kite will backup inverted. Don't turn it over or go draggin' across the ground to gain flight. Stand flatfooted or even walk backwards slowly and make the kite fly backwards, slowly up from the ground, all the while inverted. Note the position of the leader knots and flying line attachments loops. Now that beast is tamed!

If the frame flexes too much?

then it's too windy that day or you need to replace and experiment with different frame choices. That can be fun if you have a group of people who can meet regularly. Example? We didn't like how the Steve LaPorte's Spirit flew, so 3 of us spent eight months fiddling with the design during weekly meetings. Afterwards we called our resized, rebridled design a T-I-R-I-P-S (spirit spelled backwards) and I flew that design configuration for about 3 years religiously, just to be different from everyone else using Revolution 1.5s.

If it's howling wind outside and you have to fly,. . . . then add still more DOWN in the tuning of the handles (remove all that forward drive entirely and bleed that excess air pressure off of the leading edge), use heavier gauge flying lines than typical to add still more drag. I've seen folks weave stuff like kite tails thru the bridles, or affix screens to disrupt the airflow between the kite and the flying lines, wetting a nylon kite sail to soften and weight it down more. I've seen people pre-tension the leading edge with high-test bridle line. When you have more kites the solution is easier. Just change your weapon to one for those specific conditions.

I still remember when I had only one quad though and it was always the right choice regardless of the conditions, HA!

good luck and thanks for sharing your adventures with us.

-plm

[povlhp]

Thanks for lots of info. Much of it I know bits of from many sources. I found out that trim depends on wind, as gusts made my kite fly forward. We have gusty winds here, all year. Not always as bad as yesterday.

Picked up a Rev clone for ligther winds (and ordered Skyshark P90 + P400 frames). If I continue, I will probably get the vented some day. Maybe needed sooner rather than later with the gusty wind. The Ferules are solid on the Transeye, and it only has a pocket for the middle tube, so I can't put an extra frame in next to it like on the rev. But as people say, it needs to be flexible. But I can try the P400.

Been looking at the tuning videos, and advice having the lines attached as far out from the top as possible and still launch. Yesterday that was all the way out. Can still take the bottom line one knot in. JB suggested that the upper leader is actually too short by default.

Can't really water my kite. The Transeye is Icarex PC31, and water just runs off the surface. When I get the SkyShark tubes, I can start playing with that. But the Transeye supposedly do like more wind than a non-vented Rev. Maybe I should have just gone for a semi-vented or full vent initially. But average wind in Denmark is 4 m/s = 8-9 MPH, so I though a standard would give me most flight opportunities, especially in the evenings.

[Wayne Dowler]

Your question of what to do with the kite during setup or takedown - break it down!

Setting up - attach the lines to handles, stake out, run out lines, build kite (which is under your arm) and attach.

To breakdown - take kite off lines, break it down, put under arm, roll up lines - done! Should get your set up and breakdown to one round trip for each!

[RevRookie]

Been looking at the tuning videos, and advice having the lines attached as far out from the top as possible and still launch. Yesterday that was all the way out. Can still take the bottom line one knot in. JB suggested that the upper leader is actually too short by default.

Understand that the tuning is the ratio between the top and the bottom. if you are all the way out on the top, you make more adjustments by starting to take the bottom in. Some handles have equal length leaders at the top and the bottom, so you can choose where you make your adjustments. Moving the top out decreases the drive and therefore increases the effect of the brakes. Moving the bottom in increases the brake which also decreases the drive. Depending on your handles, you might find that easier.

With a quad foil that I have, all the tuning is done at the kite - the handles have no leaders at all. There are a series of knots on the attachment lines at the kite, so the more you go in towards the kite on the bottom lines, the more brake you are setting up as default if you leave the top lines at the outer knot.

Hope this gives some options on tuning.

Kelly

[Wayne Dowler]

Most of us throw away the stock leaders (even those with the "B" models) and make our own! Longer and with more knots to adjust, for our own personal feel. And that's part of the deal, you search through all the info and find that combo of details that best fits your own idea of perfection. JB's setup isn't mine and vice versa, someone on the beach doesn't like mine, but loves Joe's over there. It's all about satisfying your own ideas and feel!

PS: it'll come!

[povlhp]

So to sum up. After Iark-knotted the lines pairwise, I drop them, and the breaks down the kite. Then picks them up and walks back wrapping them up.

As for the leaders, what line should I buy to make them ? 1-1.5mm bridle line ?

[Paul LaMasters]

the best bridle line depends on your needs,..

for leaders, I like a doubled strand of hi-test bridle line (100#) with the (overhand) knots in only one of the two strands, spaced very close together (3/8" or less). Some folks use only a single strand (or the 140# strength), some even use a Dacron weave.

I believe the leaders should be "tuned from the bottoms", as this allows the top lengths to remain a consistent length for 3-D tricking. The further out there (on the top leaders) that you can reach, the more dramatic the impact on the flight dynamics. You do NOT want to reach out beyond the leaders onto the raw spectra fibres though, as that is a sure sliced open pinky finger ( and right at the finger's fold too, so healing takes forever!)

The length of the top leaders should be "just short" of reaching to the bottom of the handle leader attachment point (across that gap, but not reaching entirely).

By having only a single knot in the leaders you can easily open and retie it into a new position, so adjusting your line sets when eventually necessary (to a neutral setting, back on the stake or fence post) is super easy.

When doing one-handed stuff it's really tough to tangle the leaders if you follow my guidance and snagging the bottom attachment point can be overcome as well thru further modifications

Obviously these recommendations are my own preferences and in no way is this the only path to the promised land destination!

[povlhp]

Knots on only 1 strand ? Is that to make it easier to pull open the larks knot without fumbling ?

Is the kite on your profile image a custom made ? Seems way too colorfull to be standard boring rev stock.

[Wayne Dowler]

I weight in with another way. I keep the bottom leaders and maybe add 1 more knot, then make my own new top ones using either 90# or 170# bridle line. The distance between knots is not anywhere near as important as making both as close to matching as possible! I use about a 1" distance myself. I too recommend making them long - I like to have my top leaders touch my bottoms if I point them at each other like you see in the 1st pic.

There's a site over on the Rev forum that shows a good example, let me see if I can find it. This might give you some ideas!

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[dragonfish]

So to sum up. After Iark-knotted the lines pairwise, I drop them, and the breaks down the kite. Then picks them up and walks back wrapping them up.

Basically, but don't literally drop the lines. You'll eventually get a tangle and a mess that way. What I usually do is wind the first few feet of line onto the winder, secure it with the bungee on the winder, and gently set the winder on the ground. Then I break down the kite and pick up the winder to continue winding lines.

Also, with Revs, they will almost never move if laid flat on the ground with the leading edge facing directly into the wind. If the rest of my stuff is near my kite instead of near the handles, I have no problem leaving the kite assembled on the ground, winding lines, and coming back for the kite. Of course, I do not know if the same is true for your kite since it has a different shape for the leading edge.

[oapbillf]

There's a site over on the Rev forum that shows a good example, let me see if I can find it. This might give you some ideas!

This is the one you mean Wayne !

http://www.revkites.com/forum/topic/4409-my-leaders-your-thoughts/

This one as well !

http://www.revkites.com/forum/topic/6272-handle-length-and-bend/

Bill

[Wayne Dowler]

Thanks for the links!!

I pulled a few pix from 1 of the threads as an example to see, YMMV!

[SHBKF]

So to sum up. After Iark-knotted the lines pairwise, I drop them, and the breaks down the kite. Then picks them up and walks back wrapping them up.

Basically, but don't literally drop the lines. You'll eventually get a tangle and a mess that way. What I usually do is wind the first few feet of line onto the winder, secure it with the bungee on the winder, and gently set the winder on the ground. Then I break down the kite and pick up the winder to continue winding lines.

Also, with Revs, they will almost never move if laid flat on the ground with the leading edge facing directly into the wind. If the rest of my stuff is near my kite instead of near the handles, I have no problem leaving the kite assembled on the ground, winding lines, and coming back for the kite. Of course, I do not know if the same is true for your kite since it has a different shape for the leading edge.

Very active topic, now at 45 posts. I love to keep reading topics like this as sooner or later I pick up a tip that is helpful like the above winder method. Or I read something that I can relate to at the level I have personally arrived at in my journey on the dark side. It's all good when people have a passion for kites. SHBKF

edit: post 47 below is another example of a technique described here which I adopted from my friend Wayne.

[povlhp]

Tangled lines again today. Took one off the kite wrapped it around my hand and untangled. Now what was on my hand was a mess that would not untangle in 40 minutes at the field.

Lessons learned: if you detach a line to walk down and untangle, always wrap up the line on a winder. Will get a couple more.

Played a bit with my raptor zero wind to get some flying. Actually flying good with included tail and little wind. Soars down nicely when no wind.

[Wayne Dowler]

Were the lines tangled as you were setting up?? IF you follow John's method, you should at worst have maybe a twist or two in the set and maybe some in each individual handle. I use his method with a few minor changes and never have had any issues!

My minor changes: I stake out my handles separately (requires 2 stakes). Set the handles a foot apart and stake them down (this helps later). Hook up the lines to the handles and unwind the lines, (if you can, try keeping a finger between the two sets). Got them unwound, take a pair in each hand and spread your arms as far apart as you can. Sometimes you can see if they are twisted at all and undo them at this step, but the spreading of the arms takes all the false twists out and makes any left, pretty easy to handle.

This makes sense with my color combo code and I even go so far as to mark my handles as left and right, so to hook them up properly. Just my way, but thought you could use some of the ideas to help you.

[povlhp]

Yes, lines tangled when setting up.

Last time, I had some issues with the quad going flat in the air, and the bridle wrapped to the back of the kite. And on one takeoff I got more than 20 twists I think, and it was having trouble sorting it out, and it would go in spins on subsequent flights. Things was messed up, tried to push the mess towards handles, and wrapped up the lines. Then when at home, I unwrapped just down past the mess, and untangled on the floor. Might have induced more issues here, like one linesen through the other (still had them lark-knotted togther pairwise).

So I am leaning to wrapping them up one pair at a time until I get a bit more experience with kite lines. The lines do become a bit fluffy where I had the worst knots.

As a beginner, can I use the cheaper braided fishing line ontil I get a bit more experience ? Just sleeve it and use ? It is way cheaper than the real thing. I consider creating a short set (10 or 15 meters). Real kite line sets for quads runs from $30 or so and up. And for short lines, it is difficult finding shorter than 82 ft aka 25 meters. Or should I wait until what I have now breaks, and then create the shorter set ?

When one line breaks, do you replace all 4 ? Or buy another dual-line set and put on top ? I know the old line will probably have stretched a bit, which is why I would use new as top, as the longer leaders would allow to compensate there.

[makatakam]

I don't recommend the fishing line. I thought the same when I was new, and made a set from fishing line. The fishing line has a less dense weave pattern, and begins to bind up in three or four twists when the kite spins, making control more difficult. If you decide to make some, get line that feels smooth to your fingers. If you can feel the strands it is not dense enough, and will limit your ability to fly. DO NOT get waxed line, it binds up even sooner.

If you want to make your own lines, buy some good kite line in bulk. This will save you one third of the cost. Sleeving is not absolutely necessary, and many experienced flyers tie their new or shortened sets without it. This method requires additional knots in the end loops to prevent slipping. I use two figure-eights plus an overhand at the end of the loop to use as a pull-tab.

The lines that became "fluffy" should return to normal with stretching and use, unless some of the fibers are broken. "Fluffy" is OK, "fuzzy" is NOT OK. "Fuzzy" means you can see the ends of broken fibers sticking out, (frayed), like barbed wire. Check them each time you use them and cut them down to shorter lines when you feel they are at less than 80% strength. If one of my lines breaks, I will cut the other three to match its length, if the break is within two meters of the end. General rule is to cut down long lines, discard short ones. I try to keep all four lines at the same age. The impurities in the older lines will wear the new line more quickly.

Watch the line management video until you are sure that you never want to see it again, and then watch it a few more times. Setting up the kite and winding the lines will become easier each time you do it, especially if you use the same method each time.

Switch the top and bottom lines every three or four times you fly to compensate for stretching. After two or three times your lines should not stretch anymore.

I learned to fly on my own mostly and endured all the things you have mentioned so far -- I think we all did. Eventually I joined a kite club and flew with others. I learned so much faster that way. Do whatever is necessary to fly with experienced pilots; you will not regret it.

[Wayne Dowler]

Using 2 winders will work fine - many use that way to stop tangles. Using one winder with quad lines does take 2 things - practice and repeat-ability. Doing it over and over in the same way, helps it become habit. To me that's the key - doing it the same way - every time! Once you find a method that works, always do it the same way!

Unless I buy bulk spools and have a short line set figured in, I cut down old or broken sets. Break an 80' set, make 50' and 30' sets from it. Get the most from what I have that way.

I don't mix old and new lines in one set. As was said, old lines will wear the new lines faster than new on new. I prefer to have all my sets age at the same rate!

Never have used the fishing line thing and definitely not to be used in a group of fliers.