stapp59 Posted January 2, 2016 Report Share Posted January 2, 2016 A couple members asked that I post detail pictures of a recent quad build. This seems a like good forum spot. History: I've had a BagO'Revs for years but am primarily a dualie flyer. Have spent much time since 2000 tweaking and modding and recently building entire sport kites. I could not find everything I wanted in a single kite so I set out to create my own by merging design elements to create a wind efficient, trickable, ballet style sportkite in SUL, UL, Std, and vented models. The project was named Enigma and after two years of development am pretty happy with the results. JB has seen some of the prototypes. My Revs are ten year old nylon 1.5s and show the normal wear issues. I decided to do a quad project to match the graphics of the Enigma and use build materials and techniques similiar to the dualies. The result is my first quad shown below. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparkieRob Posted January 2, 2016 Report Share Posted January 2, 2016 The build is a fascinating read and would be a great reference for new kite projects. The Enigma GW (got wind) is a personal favourite along with the Vented UL. Down the track I will get an Enigma, or 3. I even have the pdf manuals saved. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stapp59 Posted January 2, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 2, 2016 I could ramble about the build details and choices made. Here are some closeup pics. If interested, ask questions... 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Dowler Posted January 2, 2016 Report Share Posted January 2, 2016 Nice treatment on the upper vertical pocket! But the way it's setup, would make it a challenge for the average guy/gal to ever swap bridles out if it wears. Why not a single hole, larkshead the cap, and place in pocket? Eliminates the over the top bridle line that could wear out on street flying (if you do that sort of thing)! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stapp59 Posted January 3, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 3, 2016 11 hours ago, Wayne Dowler said: Nice treatment on the upper vertical pocket! But the way it's setup, would make it a challenge for the average guy/gal to ever swap bridles out if it wears. Why not a single hole, larkshead the cap, and place in pocket? Eliminates the over the top bridle line that could wear out on street flying (if you do that sort of thing)! Thanks for the comment. I've been thinking about that detail quite a bit as it's one of the more complicated areas on the kite. The upper vert junction has to do three things: Nock end for the vertical tube Bridle connection Hold the LE and vertical frame tubes together Traditionally an end cap is bungee wrapped around the LE with the bridle larks-headed to the cap. This performs all three functions but the bungee can move around, stretch, and looks a bit clunky. The goal was to simplify the connection if I could. The pocket with a vinyl cap on the vertical tube is much like the nose on a dualie and eliminates the endcap and bungee - mostly. Certainly the fabric pocket folds down flat for packing and is easy to sew. The bridle could be larksheaded around the vertical pocket (and tube) only but this would not hold the LE and vertical tube together. Without this connection the LE is pulled forward and will bend downward 90 degrees under flight load. Not good - ask me how I know this By looping the bridle over the LE, the flight loads will pull the LE and vert tube together and that issue is solved. Concerning ease of replacement, each bridle point is sheet bend tied to a 2" pigtail. It is easy to replace the bridle and/or any of the pigtails independently though a quad is not known to wear out bridles. If you are dragging your LE over pavement enough to wear that bridle leader I suspect you will have bigger issues with the LE fabric. Is the bungee known to wear excessively in that area? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mywindstuff Posted January 3, 2016 Report Share Posted January 3, 2016 Great work and color choices as well as pattern. I can see what looks like some improvements that I personally like ! Nice job! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparkieRob Posted January 3, 2016 Report Share Posted January 3, 2016 If you drag your LE over the pavement... Yep, a bit of tedler tape to reinforce. A few nylon "studs" in the end caps helps too... Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flynhi Posted January 4, 2016 Report Share Posted January 4, 2016 Love the colors, great craftmanship! Nice work! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Dowler Posted January 4, 2016 Report Share Posted January 4, 2016 I would think that using a regular cap and having that pocket so close and tight to the LE, would do the trick. I mean the pocket being so tight to the LE might eliminate the need for a bunji and keep both rods working as one. Maybe make the pocket stick up a little higher to let the cap inside overlap the LE? Street flying is, in general, hard on equipment. Wears lines, bridles, caps, LE pockets. Many use something on the caps for protection. Whacking a bunji on a corner or other edge wears them out. Just tough on gear! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stapp59 Posted January 5, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 To eliminate the pigtail wrap over LE, the pocket has to be sewn all the way to the top of the leading edge which is complicated by the width of the overlapping spars. That can probably be done but my attempts did not look so good. Perhaps if a more flexible Cordura Nylon is used rather than the Dacron. Keep in mind the goal was something clean, straightforward, easy, and functional. For street flying, strips of gaffers tape along the LE could be helpful and replaced as needed. Same with vinyl end caps over the end caps. Of course the caps can be easily replaced, the sail not so much... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyzakite Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 6 hours ago, stapp59 said: To eliminate the pigtail wrap over LE, the pocket has to be sewn all the way to the top of the leading edge which is complicated by the width of the overlapping spars. That can probably be done but my attempts did not look so good. Perhaps if a more flexible Cordura Nylon is used rather than the Dacron. Keep in mind the goal was something clean, straightforward, easy, and functional. For street flying, strips of gaffers tape along the LE could be helpful and replaced as needed. Same with vinyl end caps over the end caps. Of course the caps can be easily replaced, the sail not so much... Nice looking kite! I keep looking at the pocket and wonder if it's a better idea than the end cap method. I know the end cap method is the fastest wear area on a Rev, where the LE frame crosses the vertical end cap. Rev uses a small Kevlar pad in that area but rubs through the leading edge material in no time, it can't be seen because it happens on the inside of the leading edge, but you know it when you see the area on the leading edge rods/tubes where there is a worn rub around it. I'm wondering if your pocket will eliminate that wear. But I'm also wondering if not having the end cap bungee method will put the vertical rod/tube end too close to the leading edge rod edge and possibly crushing the end of the vertical tube. Probably not with the extra cushioning of the vinyl screw thread protectors. To me, it looks like a better mouse trap has been built. If you need someone to put it through its paces you can ship it my way. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stapp59 Posted January 6, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2016 I expect the kite will wear just fine, time will tell. Has anyone seen other treatments for the top of the verts or other quad build details? Please post pics if possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mystainedskin Posted January 6, 2016 Report Share Posted January 6, 2016 I have seen some...and have one with different cap bungee setup...but no pockets. I find the cap worthwhile. Pockets always seem to wear out. Creating a "repair the sail" situation . Instead of replacing a cap. Nice work! Great looking kites 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
makatakam Posted January 6, 2016 Report Share Posted January 6, 2016 I use shoelace (round) instead of bungee on the tops of the verts on some of mine. Eliminates having to adjust both tops and bottoms. Keeps upper caps exactly where I want them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyzakite Posted January 6, 2016 Report Share Posted January 6, 2016 If anyone ever looked at their Rev 1.5 rods and seen a rub mark at 19" or 12" depending on which end you measure from, they have a hole on the inside of the leading edge caused by the vertical end cap. If anyone doesn't have those rub marks their leading edge rods, the kite is only a few months old or the kite isn't flown much. I find that the end cap method damages the leading edge too fast, that's why rev uses the Kevlar pad in that area, to prevent further damage, most people that never see damage even though it is there, it's out of sight out of mind. I think Steve's idea of using the pocket might prevent the damage, and replacing a pocket is easier than replacing a complete leading edge. Only time will tell. Keep checking for those marks on the leading edge rods, folks. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stapp59 Posted January 6, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2016 2 hours ago, makatakam said: I use shoelace (round) instead of bungee on the tops of the verts on some of mine. Eliminates having to adjust both tops and bottoms. Keeps upper caps exactly where I want them. Awesome! I thought about using a non stretch cord on the upper vert cap before going with the pocket idea. I may just use cord on the Nylon Rev sails I'm currently updating. More on that in a bit... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stapp59 Posted January 6, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2016 I've heard sail stretch, mesh fatigue, and frayed edges as common complaints especially on non Pro sails. Are there other problem areas? The upper vert connection is just asking for a cleaner implementation if one is out there. The pocket is one idea... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobB Posted January 6, 2016 Report Share Posted January 6, 2016 The fold spot on the mesh ! I am so down on Revs right now... my second B series mesh failed, first the full vent (OK, that one did get a lot of use & abuse), but now the one on my mid-vent (newer, maybe 1/4 the amount of air time). So, I am left with only my standard Rev. The standard Rev rarely gets flown, because its wind range conflicts with my dual line kites, which I prefer to fly. I have to wonder if quality control at Rev is slipping... I really hesitate to buy any more Revs, the ABS is looking really good right now ! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Dowler Posted January 6, 2016 Report Share Posted January 6, 2016 Rob - what a lot of us have done is have another reinforcing sized piece (think vertical patch) sewn like a belt loop from front to back, edge of sail to edge of sail and over the LE. I had to do my Zen like this and like it so much that I will do it to all the Revs I fly regularly. If you order a "Pro", you can get it done by Bazzer as he builds the kite for you. Otherwise you're going to do it aftermarket! Not sure if the mesh quality has gone down or we just use them more, but that has definitely become a weak spot for sure! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeafThunder Posted January 6, 2016 Report Share Posted January 6, 2016 I agreed with this Quote Not sure if the mesh quality has gone down or we just use them more, but that has definitely become a weak spot for sure! and Quote I have to wonder if quality control at Rev is slipping... I really hesitate to buy any more Revs speaking of leading edge mesh ... ...On regular B-Series ... It seems fly better/stronger when I blue masking tape over the leading edge mesh (partly or all mesh up to 15 mph wind) kinda like Power Blast. I kinda agreed that mesh doesn't seems very strong ... ... I have few tiny holes now. It is not like a tough wire mesh which is stronger than screen door Why not "those half-size weaved fabric" (shook?) those mesh instead ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Dowler Posted January 7, 2016 Report Share Posted January 7, 2016 Shooks still have the mesh at the LE. I know - I've flown and repaired a loaner, It does seem to be a weak spot for sure! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobB Posted January 7, 2016 Report Share Posted January 7, 2016 I'm almost OK with the fact that the mesh blew out on my full vent. 5 years of tough conditions, I mean, the full vent only comes out of the bag when the conditions are too rough for anything else. It blew out last March, I'm still mourning the loss and have yet to replace it. But now that my mid-vent blew out with less than half the flying hours, I'm starting to wonder if I would be doing the right thing re-investing in something that's destined to fail too soon IMO. I am so interested in ideas like Steve's on how to take the existing 25+ year old design, and strengthen the weak spots. Maybe Rev should pay him for some consulting work. If they addressed some of the weaknesses in the design, I would be happy to pay a few $$$ more for replacement kites that would last longer. I don't really care about fraying or quirky bungees, but I do care that I have 2 Rev B's that can't be flown anymore. Quote Rob - what a lot of us have done is have another reinforcing sized piece (think vertical patch) sewn like a belt loop from front to back, edge of sail to edge of sail and over the LE. Wayne, if I had a sewing machine & the skills, I would totally do that. I'm sure it works, 100%... That solution alone would fix my mid-vent, better than new... BUT, I don't, and I don't have the confidence to take a needle to a new sail to reinforce a new kite, either. It's a time thing, too. I just want to fly, and I feel pretty let down by my Revs at this point. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stapp59 Posted January 7, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2016 10 hours ago, stapp59 said: I've heard sail stretch, mesh fatigue, and frayed edges as common complaints especially on non Pro sails. Are there other problem areas? Rob your issues seem pretty common as do the reinforcements recommended for most all Rev sails. I bought several Revs before the Pros were even available. The early nylon sails are not known for longevity. Based on what I've learned so far, I took my earlier sails and did these reinforcements: Added a mylar strip along the vertical tube on the back of the sail. This area stretches, wrinkles, and wears quickly. The mylar fixes that. I ripped some of the LE thread seam so the mylar can be tucked under and then sewn. Sew 2" strips of Dacron behind the screen at the fold points. Even if the screen breaks down from folding, the Dacron will hold the sail together. I put Dacron in the middle also, just because. Run an additional zig zag stitch down the edge just below the LE tube and heat seal with a lighter flame. This area can come apart and fray otherwise. Replace the 1/8" bungee with a little heavier 5/32 bungee. The 1/8" tends to stretch out with time. I like how the heavier bungee is firmer with less give. Yes you need to use the sewing machine but practice on some scraps first. Do not be afraid to make small cosmetic mistakes at first. You will still add many hours of life to your sails. It is best to add the reinforcements when the sail is new but an older sail can be renewed if not too broken down and stretched out. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparkieRob Posted January 7, 2016 Report Share Posted January 7, 2016 Rob, The great thing about revs is once the rods are removed, they pack down very small for postage. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeafThunder Posted January 7, 2016 Report Share Posted January 7, 2016 10 hours ago, Wayne Dowler said: Shooks still have the mesh at the LE. I know - I've flown and repaired a loaner, It does seem to be a weak spot for sure! I am not talking about shook's "mesh" ... I meant ... use the shook's "weaved design" ripstop fabric, but in a half a size of that to replace all the mesh ... or ... replace the mesh for every other 1" space of 1" square of mylar/ripstop fabric, instead of mesh like I made an example ... every [x] is the fabric on the leading edge's section and as well for vented section like a shook design replace the vented mesh ... it's ok to say that is not a good idea or great idea with reasons ... see image below stapp59, you did a great job on those design and repairing as well ... I am impressed by your Revolution Kite Craftsmanship (your work) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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