broken Widow ng

[Breezin]

Winds were about 5 to 10 I think. Flying around getting more adventures. Took a fairly hard crash and kite turned into launch position . Got lazy and didn't check kite. Relaunched and on next crash found my inside right lower spreader cracked at the end. Lesson learned relaunch after a nice landing not a crash. Happy I didn't do more damage. Now I get to fly my nighthawk waiting for parts. If I break it then the addiction is up for torture. If that gets broke I got my gfk trainer foil and snapshot on the way. Gfk pulled itself onto the roof of my chicken coop in about a 25 mph gust last week. Got a little band aid and still flies. Don't know why it did that,its like it had a mind of it's own. I don't let it near the coop anymore. Must like eggs lol. 

[Fluke]

if the lowerspreader damage is not too severe (like just splitting then a temporary fix would be ca glue and cable ties. would get you up again while waiting for replacement

[Breezin]

Hey Fluke I've read about that while researching how to cut the tube. Not confident enough to do that yet. Seems that using the dipping in epoxy then sanding method would be stronger. Got 2 tubes and a ferrule coming. Thinking the left side might have weakened and to just do the whole lower spreader. Got a spare upper for sure though as long as the cuts right .

[Exult]

Another way to make a bit more permanent repair (or perhaps prevent future failures) is to repair using epoxy, a fair amount of glass fibres, mini amount of CA glue and then heat shrink tubing. OK, a little work intensive, but sometimes you are out of options.

Assuming cracks at the spar going around the ferrule one way of repairing would be:

1. Use as little as possible of the CA glue just to keep the broken parts in their proper places during the repair.
2. Prepare a reasonable amount of glass fibre bundle about 3dm long be used later. Don't use to little, since the glass adds to the strength.
3. Put a temporary spar with the same dimensions as the ferrule in the centre to prevent epoxy going into the broken tube in such a way that it would be blocked.
4. Mix the epoxy thoroughly and quickly.
5. If you dare, put some epoxy on the inner spar to distribute and repair from the inside. Don't know if some fat on the inner temporary spar would make it less prone to get stuck.
6. Soak the bundle in epoxy so every part of it is properly wetted by the epoxy. At this stage it doesn't matter if there is a bit too much epoxy - much of it will be removed by the heat shrinking tube.
7. Wrap the soaked fibres around the broken rod.
8. Put the heat shrink tube over the repaired part. Also let a small part of the heat shrink tube cover the end of the broken spar.
9. Apply the heat by using the heat gun. The idea here is to drive out excessive leftover epoxy (avoid shrinking the two edges of the heat shrink tube as this could trap the epoxy inside the heat shrink tube), get the repair nice and round and to cure it faster. Much of the epoxy get pressed out of the tube leaving the strong fibres remaining. A bonus of the epoxy moving in the direction of the axis of the spar is that it should cover any small notches at the end of the spar from the original cracks that later could be the starting point of new cracks.
10. Constantly move the inner temporary spar so that it doesn't get stuck permanently (which would of course be a disaster).
11. When the epoxy is jelly like. take a sharp knife and cut lose the part of the epoxy/glass fibre/heat shrink tube that goes outside the end of the broken spar (leaving some margin - ideally less than a 1mm so you don't have to sandpaper so much).
12. Remove the temporary central spar.
13. When the epoxy is hard, sandpaper the end of the repaired spar to the original length so that the end surface becomes flat.
14. If the ferrule is difficult to get into the repaired tube, use a small file or sand paper to widen it.
15. Enjoy the feeling of accomplishment or learn from any mistakes.

Added info in edit:

I'd say that the 0th thing I do whenever gluing anything on a carbon fibre spar, whether it is by CA glue or epoxy, is to de-regrease using propanol and possibly some sand papering of the spar surface (though I've not really compared to not doing it).

Second is that the images of this repair can be found in the images describing the LE repair (with the blue heat shrink tube and blue bottle...) here a few posts further on ( http://kitelife.com/forum/topic/8458-widow-ng/?do=findComment&comment=68335 ).

 

Edited December 10, 2017 by Exult
De-grease and images link

[Fluke]

on step 5, petroleum jelly can help

[Breezin]

Wow Exult that's like master degree stuff in kiteology  and I'm still in preschool lol. Got a friend who runs a rc club and builds his own planes and helis. This will be right up his alley. After 1st time seems like a pretty easy fix. Pj on step 5 it is. Don't know if I'll be brave enough to risk my sail at first but at least I'll learn something. Got some rip stop nylon coming to attempt a speed kite build during the nasty winter days. Fix and use the tube for that maybe.

[Edmond Dragut]

YMO EXULT solution is good just if you are at to a festival between to days of show or you are on the move and make the repair because you do not have spare parts. 

by mi experience you will have 98% chances to break the rod on the proximity of repair simply just because you lost the flexibility and that is creating a high pressure point 

[Breezin]

I'm no expert in these matters Edmond but that is my fear. The only thing that has worked for me on different repairs is JB weld. That doesn't seem to be conducive to any kite repair. Think I'm going to replace both sides. At least I'll have a top spare spreader and one for the bottom. I have other kites to fly so this setback doesn't ground me . Winds though augh !!! Give me a year and I promise I'll know what I'm doing. Ok maybe 2 if I can stay away from those nasty revs .

[Edmond Dragut]

take it slow, be calm and relaxed. do not make suddenly moments. learn to launch and land first to avoid crashes and you will be good. you will be amaze how fast you will evolve after you will stop accidentally crashing  

[Exult]

20 hours ago, Edmond Dragut said:

YMO EXULT solution

There is no need to go capital text here. We are all brothers and sisters in kiting .

20 hours ago, Edmond Dragut said:

solution is good just if you are at to a festival between to days of show or you are on the move and make the repair because you do not have spare parts. 

Yes and no and funny that you said so (since the most elaborate repair was just before a festival). 

The history of epoxy repairs so far: .

• The first one was on the Infinity lower spreader using little glass fibre and no heat shrink tube, the small fissures returned from small notches at the end but was still usable - is still using that spar and have not invested in any replacements.* (Original) cause of failure: too hard input just above the ground.
• The second one was repairing a stand off of the Fazer XL. Instead of using heat shrink tubing I used tape - the result was quite ugly and required much horrible sanding (really dislike glass fibre dust) before it looked OK. Cause of failure: stuck in snow and I didn't observe that the line was wrapped around the wing.
• The third one was one of my Kymeras when repairing an upper to lower LE connection. This was just days before a kite festival that the kite broke and I had no spare tubes at home. At festivals I never carry epoxy, heat gun, glass fibre and heat shrink tubes, but then the festivals I've been to only lasts a few hours. This Kymera repair, that is still working b.t.w., was the second iteration/attempt of a epoxy spar repair. The things I had with me from the Infinity repair was, don't leave a notch at the end and make it stronger, which I tried to implement using more glass and a higher glass to epoxy ratio. Cause of failure: multiple Kymera to Kymera in air collisions and a failed pancake (flare)landing on hard dry ground - wasn't prepared for the slow flare/pitch movement with the tail weight removed.
• The fourth one was a stand off of my Fazer XXL. Did the repair at the same time as the Kymera one - had all the gear out anyway. Cause of failure: Too impatient and hard launch without noticing that the line was wrapped around the wing.

One could argue that repairing stand offs takes about the same time as replacing with new better looking slightly lighter ones. In this case one should consider that the Fazers are quite heavy kites. I see it as an investment in skill that the repair rather than the replacement gives me. Being good at repairs gives you more options, e.g. why not try using a lighter spar and harden at sensitive parts before it breaks somewhere? Will the repairs last? Well it is always difficult to make forecasts - especially about the future . But if you don't try a particular method you won't learn if it works out or not.

The Infinity repair didn't last. It broke again. Especially at the whitish fissure closest to the sharpest largest notch the whitish fissure. In the higher magnification images you can see the individual broken glass fibres. That the higher magnification images appear mostly fuzzier follows by laws of optics - the higher magnification microscope objective the lower depth of focus. The last image I more or less included because it was nice to see the carbon fibres of the tube and the almost invincible glass fibres in the epoxy.

This is from the Kymera LE repair. I was careful to increase the glass fibre content and to leave no notches remaining at the end of the spar. Unfortunately I have no better pre repair images than the first image. Disregard those narrow rings of green heat shrink tubing in the before image - they did not provide enough force to hold the parts together during the CA-gluing and was therefore not used. Looking carefully at the cross section of the finished repair one can see the tube, the glass fibre epoxy repair and the heat shrink tube stack.

* Kind of reminds me of a thing a have heard of airliners, a fissure doesn't mean that the (crucial) part is replaced - just that the crack progress is being monitored. Does anyone know if this is true?

21 hours ago, Edmond Dragut said:

by mi experience you will have 98% chances to break the rod on the proximity of repair simply just because you lost the flexibility and that is creating a high pressure point 

On the other hand, the stress is not uniform along the spar, so a well placed reinforcement should be able to increase the strength. Perhaps a gradual transition could improve this matter?

[Edmond Dragut]

you are right about monitored also a crack dose not means exchange. if you take the rupture points of a crack you will have an almost perfect surface (holes at the ends of crack and cold to medium material for fill up). Is a good method not just on airplanes, is applied to glass sheets, chassis of the heavy equipment and submarines

[makatakam]

I replaced all the spars in my kites with steel i-beams. Now they don't break anymore. Of course, the kites don't fly anymore either, and they're way too heavy to carry around around, so I just leave them at home when I go to festivals and fly other people's kites. If something breaks it doesn't matter. Not my kite.

[JWharton]

I replaced all the spars in my kites with steel i-beams. Now they don't break anymore. Of course, the kites don't fly anymore either, and they're way too heavy to carry around around, so I just leave them at home when I go to festivals and fly other people's kites. If something breaks it doesn't matter. Not my kite.

LOL

Sent from my SM-G930F using KiteLife mobile app

[Edmond Dragut]

like always you have some of the best solutions 

[Breezin]

Keep it coming Exult Your ability to simplify step by step processes is worth the price of admission!! I'm thinking if I use aluminium I could still drag my kite around, show off the pretty colors. complain about the low winds and not have to show anybody how bad I fly.

[Lisa Bernard / Kiteworld]

Wow !!! Love all your info. I have never seen that kind of repair process, I probably sound like a dork, hahaha

[Lisa Bernard / Kiteworld]

Do you think that an inner ferrule with those fixes could help strength? and if you match the inside of opposite rod on kite for equal weight distribution?

[Edmond Dragut]

inner is just to do not collapse the shape when the shrinking tape is create the pressure . for that Exult is say to be moved till the glue is start to hardening 

[Breezin]

Been thinking on how to build my 1st kite and a speed kite seems to be the easiest to accomplish. I'm planing on 3 pt bridle with the frame in the back of the sail. Smoother and less billow more speed I think. How to adjust for balance and wind speed. Aha metal ferrule Inside my repaired  tube for the spine. Seems like I always get more aha moments from the dorks of the world .

[Exult]

On 12/7/2017 at 7:51 PM, Fluke said:

on step 5, petroleum jelly can help

Hmmm - perhaps I should first apply a thin layer of that stuff on the inside of the heat shrink tube to be able to remove it later? Though care must be taken not to accidentally put any of it where the epoxy actually should stick to.

12 hours ago, Breezin said:

Keep it coming Exult Your ability to simplify step by step processes is worth the price of admission!!

 

11 hours ago, Lisa Bernard / Kiteworld said:

Love all your info. I have never seen that kind of repair process, I probably sound like a dork

Thank you for your kind comments - you two almost make me blush. And @Lisa Bernard / Kiteworld , perhaps it is me who has entered the dorky path of spar repairs.

10 hours ago, Breezin said:

Been thinking on how to build my 1st kite and a speed kite seems to be the easiest to accomplish. I'm planing on 3 pt bridle with the frame in the back of the sail. Smoother and less billow more speed I think.

I have just placed the order on a Speedwing X1 (EUR 47) i.a. for the main purpose of doing "industrial espionage". You see I also never built a kite (in any in modern material). In the book "Stuntkites II, Servaas van det Horst, Nop Velthuizen, 2nd revision from 1995" they compare (and describe the build process) a Speedwing with a flat sail and one with a billow. The one with a billow pulled more and more even in the whole wind window. It was also easier to launch and also made it more quiet.
Well functioning wings and sails (trick kites might differ having other priorities than creating speed and traction) typically have a billow. For a kite to be a speed kite or a power kite you need an efficient wing therefore I'd assume that they would have a billow. So it looks like you will need to deal with a billow here. (Another bonus with the Speedwing purchase might be that I get some traction* to learn using the old demanding Atrax speed kite).

*My children object to frequent puns like this one, which a happily disregard.

From the Description text of the kite store:
"The secret of the Speedwing is the lack of a vertical rod which allows the sail to optimally bulge out in any given wind speed.
The Speedwing is fitted with a special coupe in the sail which improves its aerodynamic shape.
This shape helps in making the kite faster, pull harder and make less noise."

I didn't plan to say anything about the Speedwing/build plans (which might change, prefer to have started the process before outing anything), but it kind of fitted the situation to bring it up. In the end is not really a speed/power kite that "happens to be the current plan/play of thoughts", but I'll say no more here and now. Should get more familiar with my sewing machine, before I ruin any ripstop etc... To give a perspective I've had the above book for more than 15 years without producing any kites.

[Breezin]

I've looked at the spider kites, Balor and hqs online. The more billow the more pull and for now I couldn't handle the pull of a Ninja or 200. Bought a micron instead of the Stormy Pete to start for the better line set. The Balor 160 ul really has my interest. They all have  the coupe. The micron not being a speed kite has no inspiration for what I'm envisioning . Will be quick though. Whats a sewing machine ? I got a needle and thread. 

[Breezin]

The Speedwing X1 is the closest to what I'm thinking .

[Breezin]

Oops maybe I don't understand what coupe is. 7 bft !! I'll be right here snooping around.

[Exult]

16 hours ago, Lisa Bernard / Kiteworld said:

Do you think that an inner ferrule with those fixes could help strength? and if you match the inside of opposite rod on kite for equal weight distribution?

When being new to DLKs during snap stalls I could accidentally snap a LS. They were not plugged closest to the centre-T by design. The centre T was of the type surrounding the tube. Once the inner side of my Jam Session and Maestrale LS were plugged this never happened again.

The other time I've done this type of reinforcement on the inside was on a LLE by glueing a 1dm long carbon fibre rod in the inside of the 8mm tube just where the lower spreader connects when replacing the original LLE of my Fazer XL. If you keep the original LE/LS fitting, reinforcing on the inside, this is the possibility that  remains. In this case  the batten fitting also makes it extra crowded. Since it has only snapped on one side, only one side has been reinforced - and no I can't feel that the kite would have become unsymmetrical in any way.

3 hours ago, Breezin said:

Whats a sewing machine ? I got a needle and thread. 

You must be seriously patient! 

3 hours ago, Breezin said:

Oops maybe I don't understand what coupe is.

I'm sorry for being of poor help here - I can't really say that speed kites are my thing, nor that English is my native tongue. Honestly, I'm a bit uncertain of the difference of a camber and a billow.

[Breezin]

I really want to be  a trickster. A speed kite will let me fly in as much wind as I can handle. Still haven't flown my snapshot yet but at around 20 plus my other foil is to much for now. While sitting in my pasture a needle , thread and an idea will keep me occupied waiting for fair winds.