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Trying to maintain an inverted hover indoors is one of the things I'm using while trying to figure out what's up with the reverse 360. Outdoor I'm fine with that, unless under mental stress. I can trace out shapes and words in reverse, boxes in reverse, quickly rise inverted from a launch up to the top of the window, and hover comfortably inverted. The same with side hover and wingtip landings, I usually try to land on leaves, sometimes picking up multiple leaves each stabbed through the wingtip. My aim is gradually improving, some take a few attempts. Indoor I can hold it up steady while walking backwards, but it requires maintaining plenty of pressure in the sail. From re-watching performances, most reverse flying is far slower with less air pressure. I suspect that is because the reverse motion is relying on the momentum of flight rather than a constant load from walking required for hovering. I've also been playing around with seeing how the air flows differently in reverse. Some of my time this morning I tried the spin in place done before a catch/throw to load up the sail for the long glide. That same motion done in reverse has a dramatically different effect on the 'legs' of the quad; unlike the leading edge that wants to glide, in reverse the two legs both want to flip up or flip down to catch the air even at slow speeds, rather than wanting to glide. Trying to enter a stable reverse glide was what clued me in to applying different motions (less reverse on the lower wingtip) for my few successes. Another thing I've been feeling is the nearly-inverted slide/float, which is more like a long glide. It is still mostly forward motion, but closer to inverted that I hoped it might help develop the right sensations. It is likely some subtlety I'm missing, subtly changing tension on one handle, feeling a minor difference in motion, needing slightly different tension. Just like the struggles I had with outdoor inverted flight, finding the balance point through repeatedly over-correcting and learning the edge.

I had a bit more success in this morning's practice toward a reverse 360. I had perhaps 4 successful reverse turns instead of just one. Each one used more pressure in the sail (back up more quickly) plus a bit of forward drive on the bottom wingtip, although it's probably closer to less backward than a little forward drive. With the increased pressure in the sail it felt more prone to overcorrect/flip just like inverted flying is on outdoors when first learning the skill, but putting pressure on the kite and forcing the motion into the sail seems to be better than relying on momentum. It doesn't have the smooth floating reverse I've seen others do, but I suspect that comes with practice and finesse. I didn't realize downward 180 turns indoor were quite that strongly held, especially since outdoor quads seem to prefer downward 180s in group flies instead of upward 180s. I've seen some people do downard 180s in demo flys, but it is uncommon indoor. I'll remember to avoid it in the future. :-) At the risk of derailing my own discussion a bit, my current practice topics are: Outdoor dual: improved stalls to enable more and better precision work. Yet another big thank-you to Paul De Bakker for ~90 minutes of stall tutoring at SPI. The old Dodd videos kept stressing they were the key, but Paul's explanations helped. My new goal is to get it to stop dead, like a quad's rock solid hover, and practice holding it for two seconds to ensure it is a solid stop rather than just a brief pause. More footwork and better timing seems to be the key. (More foot-travel and better timing of footwork seem to be present across the board.) Outdoor quad: improved control in variable conditions through footwork instead of arm work, and axel all the time. The megaflys showed me I need to work on stability when not flying alone; when alone the formation is done when I feel like it, when with a group the formation isn't done until the leader calls it. During one megafly I couldn't rise as quickly as others even though my neighbors were fine, during another I dropped control while we were holding position in a ball for an extended time. I think both require hoofing it, since baking up quickly with my neighbors rather than quick pulls was the part that felt different to me. Brett Marchel helped unlock the piece of a quad axel I was missing. Before I could achieve more of a jerked snap-spin, it stayed upright and rarely laid flat. After 2 days practice on the field I can lay it nearly flat during the spin about 70% of the time, and get really flat around 20% of the time. I still sometimes get the timing wrong and it stays upright. Like the other skills, the key to unlocking it was more slack gained by footwork. The future work requires footwork timing to get the slack in place at the correct moment. Indoor duals: launch-to-fade, gain competency at indoor slackline Indoor quad: reverse 360 And on top of them all, gain more confidence in front of groups. Another thank you to Fletch for helping me over that last minute terror. The adrenaline rush part is good, the performance anxiety and overcorrections it causes are a problem. For nearly all of them I'm at the point of improving an action I can perform. Those improve with practice and study. But this reverse 360 indoor is unlike the others. I don't yet have the skill, but I'm working on it.

> First have you extended the top lines in some way ... Yes, as described in the other reply. I last extended them about four months ago, although I could possibly extend another inch or so more. > Learn to do 360ies and low wind flying with your normal outdoor quadline. It takes some running which I don't like, but I can handle both on 35 foot lines. > Learn how to pilot the Indoor Rev as a "normal" kite to know its properties on ”long” lines outdoors I haven't done that. With the terrible inland winds, I'm not sure that's a good idea. The video in the first post was a morning intentionally dedicated to reverse flight. I'll be doing the same thing tomorrow morning. (I try to fly indoors every Tuesday and Thursday.) When flying indoor I can handle forward flight, up and over, 360's, upward turns, all of these quite easily. Catch and throws, also now come quite naturally. I haven't fully mastered downward 180 turns, which I posted here about last August. I can usually handle them by adding a bit of speed and force. Once again I observed that few people use a downward 180 turn indoors, at SPI's indoor show I only counted a handful out of hundreds of turns I was paying attention to. I can also handle an inverted hover indoor, walking backwards at my maximum comfortable pace keeps the kite off the ground. While that's technically flying backward, it isn't what's normally meant. That leaves me on the skill I'm now struggling with, full reverse when flying clockwise or counter-clockwise.

> How long are your lines? This line set is 9 foot, I have the stock 15 foot set but it sometimes hits that low ceiling strut on the up-and-over, and I'm sometimes sharing the space so I get a smaller half court, so I typically use the shorter lines. > Does it barely go forward at all, under only the most demanding of your commands? Mostly, but I last added leader four months ago, I might be able to add an inch more. When you add "barely" and "most demanding", that used to be true but I could probably adjust it. I've pulled it back to the point it is difficult to launch, requiring a significant pull. I'm not sure how to document, but from when I adjusted leaders four months ago here is the side view when all four lines are off the handle and tied to a single point. I had to hook them on a chair and walk around to take the photo. On the kite I've got long leaders on the top, tiny leaders on the bottom, both visible in the picture. The handles are similar, almost no length on the bottom, perhaps 8 inches of leader on the top. I could possibly add more leader on the top but it is approaching my limit of a successful launch. Already I typically launch toward one side, making it easier to gain height through an upward slide rather than straight up or up-and-over. As you might hear and see in the video, I need a significant tug (quite different from all the other gentler motions) to launch. I have also shortened the elastics so there is a bowing along the top and tension top to bottom so it takes less to power the sail, and put rubber tips on the bottom endcaps so it doesn't slide around. > Does the kite use a bridle? No. The leaders are attached directly to the end caps, visible in the photo above. > This will take time and then suddenly happen, wondering what all the fuss was about thereafter a lesser action will initiate the action desired. That's exactly why I keep working on it, despite knowing it isn't there today. I know there is something missing, but I don't know what it is. The two that feel most likely are a subtle shift in angles, tipping back a little more or a little less, or a shift in speeds either more toward the long glide or more toward the powered sail.

I'm still struggling with indoor reverse flight. After quizzing several people at SPI for their ideas, and getting a bunch of viewpoints (e.g. lead with the hips, very light leading touch, etc.) I spent all of today's indoor practice trying to crack open something for reverse flight. Over the 45 minutes on the ball court, I was able to fall back (rather than what I'd call flight) about 90 degrees many times. During the entire morning on about three attempts I was able to reach perhaps 180 reverse, and only one single time hit about 3/4 of a circle in reverse. I never hit what I would consider sustained reverse flight. So here's a link to as much raw footage as I could record this morning. It's raw footage, so lots of rough spots. The entire 28 minutes in the clip is spent launching to a side then trying to reverse. Over and over again. You can see it from all different angles if you watch long enough. What am I missing? Moving faster to catch more air? Slower to glide longer? Different angles to try to glide differently? More speedy reverse walk? More arm extension to pull a wider ark? More time on some core indoor skill? I've been watching my own attempts all morning and cannot see what's lacking.

Thanks for the amazing party, everyone. I don't know about others, but I had a blast. I got to fly nearly every kite in my bag; from the kaiju in the calm through the Kymera and Hydra on the dual lines, and from full sail to the hardcore vent on the quads. Enjoyed a night fly with my animated LED lights playing with color changes through direction and motion, plus I had my first big solo demo. And I got to watch an incredible indoor show. Through it all I kept meeting, talking, and flying with all you wonderful folks. Let's do it again soon.

There are a bunch of forecast sites, and I refer to them almost every week. Some give a single number, others a range of data. Weather forecasts are a guide for the region, but every location is different. Trees and landscape make wind shadows and wind funnels, dead spots and windy spots that aren't on the forecast. A good meter will let you know the number at the moment you measure it, but even then wind is variable. You can see how the location matches the forecasts. With practice measuring you learn what speeds feel like like by watching everything around you and feeling wind against you. And with being unable to launch or breaking equipment you learn what kites can handle. You can learn how your specific location varies from forecasts.

Yeah, they've been responsive when I've worked with them. I think Kent and Daelyn run a great shop. I ordered a quiver of that color combo from their site years ago (see my profile pic to the left) and absolutely love the neon colors. I hope the updated reflex version looks as good as the older edition.

Interesting. I didn't know that about the lyrics, but see it now. I think it is coincidental. I doubt the Beatles were singing about kite fabrics, but who knows! Sites like PassionKites, ripstopshop, and assorted other sites that see it list PC31 as 31 grams per square meter. Maybe they're numbered for something else, but as I wrote, I figured it referred to weight. I know lots of other fabrics are also measured by weight, and I've seen a bunch of ripstop nylon being typically about 45, 65, and 75 gsm. In the US there is also such-and-such ounce fabric, which isn't ounces per square yard sadly. It's ounces per linear yard of fabric, which is usually 60 inches across. I can't wait until we move to metric, because a square meter is always a square meter, but the width of a bolt of fabric is whatever the machine happened to make. If they were numbered sequentially, and number 31 happened to also be 31 gsm, that would be another interesting coincidence. But like I said in the earlier post, I don't know authoritatively either way. For kite fabrics, it's mostly what I've read about them.

Icarex is a specific brand of PC31 fabric. There are various weights and compositions from multiple vendors, and I imagine they used more than one source over the years. PC31 is a type of coated polyester, I believe 31 refers to a weight of 31 grams per square meter. PC31 is common for sport kites as a good balance of strength and weight. PC25 and PC21 are lighter but less durable. PC36 is heavier and stronger. Others exist, but aren't as popular for sport kites.

Short term? Agreed with Zuul, in a bag in my vehicle, ready to take out onto the field. Long term, would be a double-check that all elastics are de-tensioned, then laying down somewhere I know they'll stay dry, cool, and otherwise protected. But really, that's just a sad situation since the kite was meant to be flown. Retired, mounted on a wall in a place of honor for all to see.

Now the suspenseful part, forecasts are starting to appear for the days. They're still wildly variable until we get to the days immediately before, but still interesting to see what's forecast. W: 18-37 MPH, 20% chance of thunderstorms, 25% rain Th: 18-45 MPH, 10% chance of rain F: 5-16 MPH, 25% chance of rain Sa: 17-40 MPH, 5% chance of rain Su: 13-29 MPH, 3% chance of thunderstorms, 5% chance of rain. The thunderstorm risks stink, but at least there will plenty of wind. The HV may even get some quality air time. @DTill I hope your beautiful pinstripe kite bag has gear for it. I seem to recall reading higher wind kites may still be a gap for you. When we meet upon the sand -- I'm sure we will -- if you need to borrow something speak up. While I don't have much duplicate gear in the high wind range, it's fun to see the HV and XV Djinn together midair.

Old ones exist, but it is a discontinued model. It is akin to asking about buying a new 2015 vehicle. You can hunt down lightly used ones, and a store might have an old one gathering dust rather than sold, but they are no longer produced and becoming ever less available. Read this post. For only a little more than those used to cost, get a Djinn. They're like the B Series Pro, but a bit better, with better fasteners and metal end caps, a bit more responsive, more high wind options, etc.

I wish I could take more days off work and afford hotels for that long. Mid-day 29th through late on the 2nd. Even though the festival is Friday and Saturday, there is casual flying there on Sunday and later. I'll stay as late as I can, but will need to leave before sundown to get back to real life.

Antelope Island was Team iQuad's final performance location, if I remember correctly. There was a small kite event with the annual roundup events some years. I don't know if that still gets organized. It is cold in the winter, but the beach is survivable. I remember one winter I was out there with my family, all of us bundled in the cold, when a van came out to the nearly empty beach, and photographers set up for a bikini clad woman and some photos against the water and sand. She jumped from the van, ran out for the shot, and ran back. I figure the cold of winter is one way to get an empty beach. 🤔

Born and raised there, sadly needed to move back in 2015. There is plenty of wind, especially if you are willing to drive 30-60 minutes. Consider many people make a multi-hour trek to beaches, you could drive a quarter of the way to Wendover and stop anywhere along the highway for similar winds with a shortish drive. There are parks with good winds, and plenty of places with turbulent winds. I had a favorite spot near my home, the terraced soccer fields behind the Olympic skating oval, that often had something moving. Various parks have wind funnels you can find, and urban flying works (in the summer) as buildings make their own winds. If you can take a drive there are canyon winds, mountain ridges in the summer especially by ski resorts, and the desert dunes, both public land and rec areas like the Little Sahara. There are places with regular reliable winds, like beaches on Antelope Island. Both the desert and the island often have amazing wind, and for many people it's a shorter drive than other people's beaches. You are right that the full vent won't leave your bag as often, but often in April and May there will be days you want it, or even wish for an XV or HV kite. Most days I used a full sail or mid vent. The more venting the less you will fly it, but eventually you will be standing in 40 MPH gusts either having a blast or wishing for the hardcore vent kite. That kite may only leave the bag twice a year, but when you need it, you really need it. I've made a trips out to Antelope Island when the wind forecast is good, and it often is smooth from blowing east across 30 miles of water plus a hundred miles of salt flats before that. It is a bit cold this time of year, but bundle up and you can make a day of it after checking the forecast.

I had a similar issue. I couldn't get it, took video of it and shared asking for help. People watched the videos, looked at both my hands and the kite, and frustratingly replied like the one above: the only fix is inverted practice. So I spent Saturday after Saturday on it, flying inverted. Climb up inverted, make shapes in reverse, do every pattern in reverse. It took maybe 20-30 hours but then I discovered it became easy, but still rough. Many hours of focused practice and now my spectators say I am amazing at it, but I'm still slow and shaky relative to the pros. Slow, deliberate, methodical, boring practice. Just like many hobbyist musicians hate doing scales slowly and precisely preferring to play fun songs fast and loud, many hobbyist kite fliers love to flying fast and furious rather than developing technique and finesse. Go slow, get each step perfect, then repeat. And repeat again. Remember the difference between an amateur and a professional: the amateur only practices until they can get it right; the professional practices until they cannot do it wrong.

Tides will complicate night flying, but something may be possible. I'm a little skeptical given my past experiences, but there is always a chance. The tides will work for the festival, but the water will be there like always: Tide forecasts (rounded) and dawn/dusk: Wednesday: 3:15 AM high 0.9 ft; 11:30 low 0.2 ft; 7:10 pm high 1 ft; Dawn 7:14, dusk 6:10 Thursday: 1 AM low 0.7 ft; 5:10 AM high 0.7 ft; Noon low 0.4 ft; 6:55 high 0.9 ft; Dawn 7:13, dusk 6:11 Friday: 2:AM low 0.5 ft; 7:30 AM high 0.7 ft; 12:20 low 0.6 ft; 6:36 high 0.9 ft; Dawn 7:13, dusk 6:12 Saturday: 2:30 AM low 0.3 ft; 6:00 PM high 0.9ft; Dawn 7:12, dusk 6:13 Sunday: low 3:00 0 ft; high 1:30 0.9 ft; Dawn 7:12, dusk:6:13 Also a note for the future: SPI has been soliciting proposals to develop the flats, driven by their "Convention and Visitor’s Advisory Board". The Sierra Club has been fighting it because of creatures and habitat, some locals have been fighting it since it's the only bay-side public beach. The city's published goal is to encourage profitable water sports in the bay (kayaking, wind-surfing, and personal watercraft, including rental businesses), and they want bids for developments accommodating 7,000 spectators, at least 2000 covered amphitheater-style bay-facing seats, plus boardwalks with shops, and places to launch watercraft. The plan wants to start building within three years. So enjoy the flats while they last. :-(

Yes, different from what I have seen and flown in Lincoln City. The public participation is different. At Lincoln City people wander through like an open house, some pull out kites, some just watch, some shop on the walkway. Here it is mostly sitting around the roped area in your lawn chair to watch. During the event I have flown out a short way on the flats a few hundred feet away, but it was always solo. Watching the same demos repeat for two days gets old, but I would pay special attention to the group flys. Sometimes they were downwind and I could watch everything, sometimes not, and sometimes I would sit on a chair and just watch. I would love to make it a pair. They do interact with the crowd as time permits. My daughter talks about 'that time Fletch captured me with his kite when everyone was setting up', but overall B&S has a strict boundary the masses must stay behind. After the indoor session everyone is on the floor with a line of questions, comments, and thanks. The outdoor days are demo after demo continuously, cycling through each team or individual the entire day. As for kite lights, I'm 0 for 3 on that, evening winds have not been great on the beach. I will have lights with me, and might become 1 for 4 out there. I have had better luck on night flys inland at home.

I guess I'll schedule some early time, and hopefully meet up some people from the wrong side of the tracks on Wednesday. Paul's expected demo: While they're distracted watching the kites, have a partner pick their pockets. This ensures a steady supply of future kites. ;-)

Having moved to Texas back in 2016, I've had three experiences at the SPI kite fest, a great show each year. It's Thursday night, Friday, and Saturday. Three years ago I couldn't stay any extra days but learned about the typical after-party too late. Two years ago, that Sunday had a TKL clinic which was informative. Last year, there were a few kite followers and about 15-20 people on the flats on Sunday with the after-party. This year, because of work scheduling I've got the option to show up early Wednesday but probably don't have the option to stay through Sunday. Is there much of a before-party? Should I plan for a good group day, or plan to be alone in the air, or wait to arrive on Thursday? I'm assuming with various teams arriving at least the invited fliers (many here on the site) will be spending a bit of time on the beach, but I'd hate to disturb anyone who is putting finishing touches on demo routines.

It would work. The "up to 25" may mean different things to different people. Most kites have a range of about 10 or 15 MPH. Lighter kites have a smaller range as they are more fragile, stronger heavy kites can have a bigger range. Stronger winds than the sail is designed for will stretch the fabric and risk breaking the spars. Weaker winds are difficult to fly in. It is all a bunch of trade-offs. Each brand of quad line kites has vented models inside that wind range. Many people carry a sail for 5-15 range. One may be 10-25 range, and maybe still another for 0-5 or 3-10, or strong winds from 30-45. The numbers on a web site are suggestions but vary by the human on the line and their skill and ability. The Rev spider is good for 10-25. Weaker winds are possible if you're skilled and willing to do leg work. Stronger winds will stretch the fabric. It is a good second kite for beginners, or a first kite if you regularly have stronger winds.

I prefer long handles. They mean that smaller hand motions translate to a larger line motion, and allow a farther maximum difference from neutral. Consider if your neutral position is right in the middle balance point (it probably isn't, but let's imagine) then a 13" handle gives a max of 6.5" either way. A 15" gives you 7.5" of possible adjustment, a 17" gives you 8.5" of possible adjustment as you move your hands. If you are about tiny motions and precise hand gestures I imagine the difference will be more important. If you like to flail your arms I expect the difference will be less significant.

I don't see the link right now, but they made a video showing it. The new springs can be slid around for adjustment. Placement of the spring relative to the velcro changes the tension. Attaching it low relative to the velcro gives lower tension, attaching it high puts more tension on the spring. That translates to a deeper shape on the sail, which affects the glide.

Yes, they were taped on originally, a bit of wire with no real adjustment possible. The recently introduced new springs are standalone clips that can be repositioned to adjust the glide or removed completely. Better design overall I think. If you want them you could remove them when packing up, and if you like the glide effect you can fine tune it. If you don't want them, slip them off. My only reflex has become my loaner kite, getting less love than it probably ought. I would love to try all those other kite designs, at least enough to feel what makes them unique.