frob

There is fairly little organized flying in the region. I moved four years ago and was the only person I could find who regularly flew on the Wasatch Front. There's a few people who used to be in competitions but no longer were. I have a brother who flies his flexifoils every year or so when I am out there and convince him to fly with me, but that doesn't help you much. The roundup at Antelope Island had a kite festival with the events but I think it stopped several years ago. Old news articles may help you find names and contacts. But if you are elsewhere in Northern Utah it may take travel time. You weren't very specific about where you were, Logan, Brigham, Ogden, they are more likely to find like minded people than Snowville or farm country. The kite store A Wind of Change closed their physical store in Vegas and moved the shop online, and moved to Salt Lake City several years ago, they may help find some local contacts.

That's what you write now. Many people get the "kite bug" and go deep. Others don't. If you're sure it will remain casual then get a cheaper one, but if you feel more serious the cost difference is relatively small in the long run. If it helps, consider hours of entertainment per dollar. Your first learning will cost some extra sail life and repair costs for broken spars, but they are good for many hundred hours of entertainment. The Vertigo and Rev EXP are made from a different fabric than the others which is heavier (Edit, see note) but it also can aid beginners by being slower and more sturdy. But after your first few flying days you may not want that. Go fly other people's kites and learn what you prefer, then buy that. Fly other people's kites in a variety of conditions and wind speeds if possible. You should also try dual line, and other styles like speed kites, power or traction kites, which also have dual and quad line options. All are fun in different ways. You originally wrote 3-20 mph range. While there are kites that can do that for a short time, for most of us that means three different kites. A full sail quad can handle the lighter winds but will be stretch out of shape quickly at 20 MPH with high risk of damage at every gust. A mid vent will struggle in light winds and be difficult at 20, but with experience could fly the full range. Neither endpoint would be particularly fun, though. A full vent would not fly for a beginner below about 10 MPH but would be strong at 20. Above 20 you would want a different sail, as well. /Edit: Looks like the Vertigo's different fabric is somewhat lighter. Their web site says it's a slightly lighter polyester, rather than the more typical polycarbonate (PC) fabric. Either way, the EXP and Vertigo models use a different fabric than the ones used on most of the other major models. It's something to consider.

That almost looks like scales. I can imagine it with a dragon head or serpent head on a large show kite.

That could look trippy (in a good way) in motion.

... Um, yes. We fly alone collectively. Then we have large festivals with throngs watching individuals. Now we sit alone and attend teleconferences with other like minded solitary people. And we chat together all alone. We're certainly a contradictory bunch.

For me they change when I switch between a Rev and a Djinn, they change sometimes when I'm flying with others and they can't launch, and they change as the lines stretch out but I don't want to equalize right that moment. They rarely change mid-session.

With my normal parks closed but some "alternate" venues open, and with the city still recommending people get outdoor exercise while keeping distance, I've had some extra urban flying time. Unfortunately the area available had some terrible crosswinds, in addition to turbulence from nearby buildings, trees, benches, utility sheds, and pavilion shelters. I've done a little experimentation with urban flying from my parking structure and around parts of my preferred parks, but never anything quite like today. Winds were a cross-wind, ranging from near-stopped to moderate, I'd estimate 1-15 mph. I switched from a mid-vent to full sail after the first few wind stalls. My own already-realized notes on the subject of urban crosswinds: Short lines seem better. I was using 25' lines, and thought about shifting to 15' lines. I think they would have made it easier. Float around in the middle ground. When you know crosswinds are shifting from due South (180') to North North West (340') do your best to keep floating through the middle ground so transitions are easier. In this case, it means trying to stay south-westerly (180-220 degrees when South, 300-340 degrees with NNW). Footwork keeps power when wind doesn't. When the wind shifts, that means powering the kite with feet while trying to drift to the new direction. When in trouble or winds cut out completely, apply the indoor concept of "flying means falling slowly". When the shifting wind won't support a hover, walk/jog the kite into a glide. Even with those, it was challenging today to deal with the cross winds. Sometimes doing the odd landings on a bench or other object wasn't so much of an active choice, more of a last resort to keep upright and prevent a walk of shame, or prevent losing the kite behind an object. Any additional recommendations from the urban flying crowd on how to deal with shifting, variable, turbulent winds?

With full disassembly you could make about 12 prizes. Win a dozen kite parts in a stylish Kite Forge travel case. 🤔

My indoor location is unavailable. I can work from home and am expected to keep my existing work load, so all I gain is the brief commute time. Normally I have a short commute so there is little additional free time. So my 2x per week morning indoor sessions are canceled, and I really enjoy my weekend flights. I have taken some evening flights when winds were good, but I am feeling withdrawal overall.

Far too variable for a number like 17 hours, or even a number like 23 practice days or 200 hours of practice. Depends on the person, depends on what you mean by "the tricks and basics", depends on when they practice, how often they practice, the conditions during the practice, how long they practice, depends on if the practice is highly focused or casual, depends on what they are practicing, depends on the kites they are using, depends on more factors besides. Some have a natural order. You can't really learn to stall until you've got great control of the kite. Acrobatic tricks require the skills of not just control, but to recover the kite during a loss of control (which many tricks require, especially while learning). You can reach a level of basic control in anywhere from minutes to hours. You can be competent with several hours to several dozen hours (depending on all kinds of factors) but truly mastering it takes many hundred hours of practice in many varied conditions. For one person getting the first accomplishments may mean a weekend of intense training on the beach - - 20+ hours in ideal conditions with experts occasionally offering tips. For another, several years of 50+ one hour sessions going to a local park alone, unaided by anyone and with very limited self review or focus. Does that mean it takes a weekend or years? The kite you are flying also can make a difference. Some kites are better suited for precision and team flying, some kites are better suited to tricks and acrobatics, some kites can do both fairly well, some kites can do neither very well. Getting more time on the line is always a safe answer. No matter the skill, keep practicing it. The more you fly the more experience you gain, the more it will cement existing skills, and the easier new skills will come. I have found recording the session and critically reviewing it to be helpful. Find moments you succeeded, moments you nearly succeeded, moments you hesitated, moments you attempted something and failed spectacularly, and study every single one of them. Post links so others can also review it and offer suggestions. Meeting with another skilled pilot who can help you can be very helpful. Some people are better teachers than others. Track your progress. Make notes of how many hours you were flying, how long you worked on specific skills, the conditions, and assorted other notes. When sharing with others the answers may not be the ones you want, you may be told to practice basics and fundamentals when you want to practice more intense stuff, like someone being told to practice dribbling and passing a basketball when they only want to master a slam dunk. But no matter the sport, experts still have to practice the fundamentals and keep them sharp, from world-class athletes doing sessions passing the ball, Olympic medalist gymnasts still spend time focusing on handstands and handsprings. And pro kite fliers spend some of their flying time thinking about basics like ensuring their flight lines are straight and turning angles are perfect. Maybe. Different kites have different levels they can handle. If you have the budget to buy more expensive kites, or to fly indoor kites and potentially break them outdoors. Also, not all kites are suitable for all kinds of flying. A Pro Dancer is a great light wind kite for precision team formations, the Level One Badass is a great light wind kite for acrobatic tricks, both are great in very low winds but the two are far from interchangeable. Whether a purchase is worth it for you depends on you, your budget, and your interest. If you can reasonably afford it and your interest is strong enough, sure it is probably worth it for you. If you cannot reasonably afford it right now, wait. If you aren't sure your interest is strong enough for several hundred bucks in more kites, wait. A good way to answer is to determine if it is your or your kite. Is the kite you are using capable of the skill you are trying, or is it your own skill that is holding you back? Spending more money on better gear won't help you if you are unable to use it, and better gear is generally more expensive or time consuming to repair; in that case keep on the equipment you have now. However, if you've progressed to the point where you need better equipment, either because your current gear is unable to handle it or because the different equipment is better suited to the task, then get the equipment.

Easy solution: bring more kites.

An opportunity to get into kite making. If the winner isn't interested in making things with the fabric, this would be a good one to have a list of fallback ##s

Only two? Many people here bring out a bag of kites that cover the entire range, from still air to raging gale. No matter the condition they are prepared.

Several, they're just not Hadziki wings, they're power kites. Flexifoil's Blurr, Blade, and Rage. Prism's Tensor series. Several of Peter Lynn's quads. None work the same as the Djinn's bridle because the wing design is different. Even so, they change how the force is distributed across the sail.

Quite a few models (edit: of other styles of kites) have them. The Rev is an exception at its price point, nearly everything at that cost is adjustable. For single and dual line kites it is the way to adjust the pitch, giving faster or slower flight, more or less forward drive. A quick adjustment for strong or weak winds changes the feel, letting you match the conditions. Adjustable knots can also change the distribution of force. This is what most quad bridle adjustments do. Visually a few millimeters is not much, but on the kite it can be enough to destabilize flight, or to turn an okay flier into an amazing flier. You can slow down the kite for a gentle relaxing cruise, or crank it up to racing speeds and twitchy control.

It's always sad to me when businesses close with the retirement of the owner, instead of becoming self-sustaining entities. David Gomberg has been a fixture within the community, and both David and Susan's influence will be missed.

Yes, comparing the videos there is far more footwork and motion in this latest than in the first or second clip, and in the comments in the video I can now identify times where even more foot power and foot direction was needed. That's why I put in those big captions. The difference is now I know. Before I could not see or feel it.

Holding an inverted hover indoors isn't difficult for me, that's about keeping the pace up to hold it aloft. This has been about making an active transition from forward to reverse indoor. My next phase indoor will be converting "I can have controlled reverse indoor", to "I can always fly in reverse indoor." I love the mantra: An amateur practices until they can get it right, a professional practices until they cannot get it wrong. Outdoors I'm confident (until I have 2000 spectators, then my brain freaks out), I can do the soda can wingtip landing, and I love flying with teams when I can be with them. My current difficulty is holding a position even when the wind doesn't want to cooperate; at SPI in the group flies I lost some control on one instance after holding an inverted diagonal hover in a ball for an extended time in light wind, and more than once had difficulty moving and staying at the very top of the window in light wind. John's calls were reaching right up to the very top of the window and I had been experimenting with adding even more brake; so even fully pulling back my 15" handles so the line and the handle were basically touching the entire length still couldn't gain and hold the position. As mentioned on the last page, doing it even when the And as for dropping handles occasionally, I spent about 2 hours at SPI pre-event working with the other Paul on some precision work, and my own sudden tugs were sometimes enough to pull it from my grip. It was a bit embarrassing, but he said not to change the position of the grip since it allows better feel and reaction. When working with Brett on quad axels, I similarly lost the grip a few times, so I think I'm there with the gentle grip.

Practice day six of this. I can now feel and see a transition. Here is an edited video this time, five minutes long, with some comments I added for what I suspect at various points. I'll still take comments on those if you see something different. There is a moment of transition where one of several options tend to happen: Top side moves in reverse, bottom side stays put. Usually this seems to need more pressure. Kite doesn't have power to move, slides down or stays stationary. Needs more foot power for pressure. Kite moves in reverse, but bottom wing reverses rapidly and swings up, turning the kite to face the ground. I have discovered I need to push forward drive hard on the bottom side while pushing reverse on the top side. Top side moves more rapidly into reverse pulling the kite back to level, or entire top half of wing pulls in toward me. Too much pull on the top side of the wing. Or, SUCCESS, sail catches the air and moves in reverse. That moment happens at the apex of a stall. If it has too much momentum #3 or #4 will happen. If it doesn't have pressure #1 or #2 happens. If I turn too strong or too weak #2, 3, or 4 happens. If I get all of them right, the center body of the sail inflates and the kite moves powerfully in reverse. In today's practice I could frequently, but not always and not reliably, fly in reverse. I can also feel and see the transition point that was invisible to me before. I think a few days of feeling the different conditions and gaining a more intuitive / automatic feel for the required motion should bring me to reliably completing the action. It's a small addition I think, but it was hard to overcome so it feels like a huge success.

For the first, yes, I believe but don't know for certain that the sail billowing a little made some of the difference. I don't know if it is essential. The sail including the leading edge are under tension already due to doing most of Watty's suggested mods. In addition, I've followed the Djinn's method of clipping the elastic on the leading edge internally, plus I've used some tubing (the stuff of 'water weenies') on the two endcaps so it doesn't slide around. The leading edge is quite curved, and the material tight along the spars ready to cup at the slightest motion. For the second, neither. I usually fly indoors twice a week before work, and outdoors on Saturday. I enjoy it and want to improve my skills. That's just in comparison to light wind flying, trying a similar backing up motion.

Okay, day four of my full practice devoted to this. Here is the unedited video from half of it. My best success was at 9:50 in that clip, managing not once around, but somewhat over twice around. While I've been toying with this reverse flight on-and-off for months, here are these summary four days dedicated exclusively to reverse flight: Day 1- 0 full reverse 360s, 1 good partial of 3/4 turn, 1 good half-turn reverse, a bunch of 'falling backward' Day 2- 0 full reverse 360s, 4 good partial turns, many 'falling backward'. Day 3- 0 full reverse 360s, perhaps 5 good partial turns, many 'falling backward'. Day 4- four full reverse 360s, perhaps 5 good partial turns, several reverse floats back to the ground. Today's big change was to dramatically increase the force I use to load the sail. Usually moving forward I can do a gentle sustained force that keeps it barely loaded, and if I let up slightly it shifts to a forward float or glide. During these successes I found I was pulling back to load the sail about 2x or even 3x what I do for forward flight. The other big change was directing the force. The top half I need to pull back in full reverse, the bottom half I need to apply nearly-full forward drive, otherwise it would destabilize or rotate around like an inverted hover or full rotation, subject to continuous minor correction. This feels different than the same motion outdoor, which very nearly holds neutral on the low-hanging side with the top half pulled back to hold the sail vertical. A new problem today was, I think, coming from maintaining the vertical direction while in reverse. In outdoor, because it's holding a vertical angle, the arms require a "drawn bow-and-arrow" posture to maintain a straight line. In this practice, the motion ended up laying the kite flat. While it made flying more difficult, recovering from it felt like the same motion as an axle, a big tug to the side and it swings back around. One thing I noticed was when loading the sail during the successes and the partial-successes, there was a kind of click or pop into place. Maybe a term would be "indoor whump", or maybe "engaged" or "pressurized"? When it hit the right combination of load and velocity, there was a notable shift that came in as a pop or click that I could feel strongly, almost as though it went from the sail being pulled then suddenly kicked into being engaged or driven, like when powered by a sudden gust but at an indoor scale. There was a notable tug at that instant. When I felt that kick in, the kite was suddenly substantially more responsive and joined up with the commands I wanted to give. Again, the amount of sail loading was roughly double the sail loading I use for forward motion. I suspect that's the point I've got to hit for this to become reliable. When that engagement kicked in and then left again, it stalled. I found I could shift back to forward drive or otherwise recover during that moment of stall, rather than dropping down to a landing or pulling in for a recovery catch. Anyway, looking forward to comments people may have.

Another morning practice, not much improvement for sustained reverse indoors. I feel it was easier giving more force, less float. I've tried more variations of twisting, lead with the chin, also lead with the hips as was suggested, and also a variation I'd call walking to the side and dragging the kite along by force. With that I was able to drag it through a half rotation around the court, but it would either destabilize to a rocking motion or de-power and drop. Even so, still not there yet. I think I'll post a vid of Thursday's practice, too.

Much like having a weekly assignment from a music teacher, those are my 'work on this next' lists. For my history, I self-taught to fly dual line kites (simple dual line deltas and my brother's power kites) starting in 1986, and saw catalog pictures of quad line kites when they came out that were eventually called Revolution. I saved my pennies and bought a few kites, but around 1994 adult responsibilities kicked in. There was no YouTube, and living 800 miles from a beach meant I didn't get to see anything in the kite world. Instead there were catalogs from Catch The Wind (not Into The Wind, it was the kite store at Lincoln city before the kite store that was before the kite store that was before the store that is there now) and a few others, with ads for mostly dual line and single line kites. I still have some of that blue SpiderLine, an early brand of Spectra line. Over the following years I would occasionally pull out my kites, and in the mid 2000's I flew with my kids who were amazed at dual lines but preferred to run around while flying my parafoil (which they called "the bag kite") but nothing serious. In the early 2010s my interest came back more severely, I discovered youtube videos showing all kinds of changes. There were standoffs on kites, and people were doing tricks I never imagined. Quad line kites were doing formations that blew my mind. I managed to get to a few kite festivals, but kept taking the responsible route of spending money on family instead of myself. I saved up the money, and bought my first quad in 2015. There were some youtube videos and the DVD that came with the kites, but it was a tremendous amount of trial-and-error. I still was searching for online communities, and didn't discover KiteLife until 2017. I was flying on my own, watching tutorials online to work on skills, but mostly have had to figure things out on my own. Only since then have I had the chance to post videos for others to view and offer tips. On the rare occasions I can fly with someone in real life, I'm generally the most advanced person in the group, with the exception of traveling to a festival somewhere, when I'm a relatively skilled amateur. From 2015-2017 I flew 1-2 times per month. Starting in 2017 I tried to hit once per week. In mid 2018 I shifted to 3x per week, usually 2 mornings indoor and Saturdays outdoor, weather permitting. I'd still absolutely love an indoor clinic, and due to location I've been to two indoor live performances. Everything else indoor has been through videos, reading, and experimentation. Which brings it back to this topic, working on reverse 360's indoor and asking for help through recordings.

Trying to maintain an inverted hover indoors is one of the things I'm using while trying to figure out what's up with the reverse 360. Outdoor I'm fine with that, unless under mental stress. I can trace out shapes and words in reverse, boxes in reverse, quickly rise inverted from a launch up to the top of the window, and hover comfortably inverted. The same with side hover and wingtip landings, I usually try to land on leaves, sometimes picking up multiple leaves each stabbed through the wingtip. My aim is gradually improving, some take a few attempts. Indoor I can hold it up steady while walking backwards, but it requires maintaining plenty of pressure in the sail. From re-watching performances, most reverse flying is far slower with less air pressure. I suspect that is because the reverse motion is relying on the momentum of flight rather than a constant load from walking required for hovering. I've also been playing around with seeing how the air flows differently in reverse. Some of my time this morning I tried the spin in place done before a catch/throw to load up the sail for the long glide. That same motion done in reverse has a dramatically different effect on the 'legs' of the quad; unlike the leading edge that wants to glide, in reverse the two legs both want to flip up or flip down to catch the air even at slow speeds, rather than wanting to glide. Trying to enter a stable reverse glide was what clued me in to applying different motions (less reverse on the lower wingtip) for my few successes. Another thing I've been feeling is the nearly-inverted slide/float, which is more like a long glide. It is still mostly forward motion, but closer to inverted that I hoped it might help develop the right sensations. It is likely some subtlety I'm missing, subtly changing tension on one handle, feeling a minor difference in motion, needing slightly different tension. Just like the struggles I had with outdoor inverted flight, finding the balance point through repeatedly over-correcting and learning the edge.

I had a bit more success in this morning's practice toward a reverse 360. I had perhaps 4 successful reverse turns instead of just one. Each one used more pressure in the sail (back up more quickly) plus a bit of forward drive on the bottom wingtip, although it's probably closer to less backward than a little forward drive. With the increased pressure in the sail it felt more prone to overcorrect/flip just like inverted flying is on outdoors when first learning the skill, but putting pressure on the kite and forcing the motion into the sail seems to be better than relying on momentum. It doesn't have the smooth floating reverse I've seen others do, but I suspect that comes with practice and finesse. I didn't realize downward 180 turns indoor were quite that strongly held, especially since outdoor quads seem to prefer downward 180s in group flies instead of upward 180s. I've seen some people do downard 180s in demo flys, but it is uncommon indoor. I'll remember to avoid it in the future. :-) At the risk of derailing my own discussion a bit, my current practice topics are: Outdoor dual: improved stalls to enable more and better precision work. Yet another big thank-you to Paul De Bakker for ~90 minutes of stall tutoring at SPI. The old Dodd videos kept stressing they were the key, but Paul's explanations helped. My new goal is to get it to stop dead, like a quad's rock solid hover, and practice holding it for two seconds to ensure it is a solid stop rather than just a brief pause. More footwork and better timing seems to be the key. (More foot-travel and better timing of footwork seem to be present across the board.) Outdoor quad: improved control in variable conditions through footwork instead of arm work, and axel all the time. The megaflys showed me I need to work on stability when not flying alone; when alone the formation is done when I feel like it, when with a group the formation isn't done until the leader calls it. During one megafly I couldn't rise as quickly as others even though my neighbors were fine, during another I dropped control while we were holding position in a ball for an extended time. I think both require hoofing it, since baking up quickly with my neighbors rather than quick pulls was the part that felt different to me. Brett Marchel helped unlock the piece of a quad axel I was missing. Before I could achieve more of a jerked snap-spin, it stayed upright and rarely laid flat. After 2 days practice on the field I can lay it nearly flat during the spin about 70% of the time, and get really flat around 20% of the time. I still sometimes get the timing wrong and it stays upright. Like the other skills, the key to unlocking it was more slack gained by footwork. The future work requires footwork timing to get the slack in place at the correct moment. Indoor duals: launch-to-fade, gain competency at indoor slackline Indoor quad: reverse 360 And on top of them all, gain more confidence in front of groups. Another thank you to Fletch for helping me over that last minute terror. The adrenaline rush part is good, the performance anxiety and overcorrections it causes are a problem. For nearly all of them I'm at the point of improving an action I can perform. Those improve with practice and study. But this reverse 360 indoor is unlike the others. I don't yet have the skill, but I'm working on it.