B Series or newer quads?

[Bob D]

I mostly fly duals but I fly my vented or mid vent B Series when the wind is a little stronger than I like. I'm not great at precision but I'm working at it. I DO like the B series but I'm wondering if the newer quads have an advantage over the older ones. I like the look of the Djinn and the Los Hermanos but I'm wondering how differently they would fly.

[Bunduki Vlieger]

I would say that even as a beginner / less frequent flyer you notice the direct change B Series - Djinn - Detox - B Series immediately. Especially when you play with different line lengths.

But the most obvious difference is the immediate, clear leap in quality in the craftsmanship. Every time I set up my Djinn, for example, I am delighted by the small details (such as the end caps or the bridle).

All my B Pro by Bazzer had to be restored in the meantime (LE, gauze).

[riffclown]

Most all are based on the same wing shape but there are differences that stand out. The B-series is probably the most versatile kite Rev Made. It included a whole extra frame and different venting options. When Rev patent expired, they realized there was still a patent on their springs so every kite from Rev was suddenly equipped with springs.

Now, Other manufacturers brought different things to the table for the most part based on feedback that Rev all but ignored over the years.

Bazzer started lashing the uprights solidly locking them to the leading edge with none of the play of the bungee attachments of the classic Rev design. He also adjusted Venting options and placements to meet his flying preferences. He also added heat shrink to some bridle points to mask knots and reduce hang points.

OSK took it a step further by implementing T-Connectors and eliminating the screen along the LE and using holes instead. They also  added Wear strips which were a very common add on for Revs over the years.

John (Kite Forge) listened to a bunch of feedback over the years including a lot of his own. He had a bit of a side bar going with reinforcements and wear strips. They went down the road of R&D completely based on his experience and came up with the Djinn.. There are many of the same features that were added to other kites over the years. They also added Integrated Wear Strips, LE Reinforcement Tabs, Slight shape changes to help with sail stability, and a bridle that seems to be unique among all the offerings.

The Printed offerings bring pattern options that no one else can. I haven't flown a Detox but I do have a few printed sails that fly quite nicely.

 What follows is my opinion only. IMO what each of these options brings to the table. Bazzer locked the uprights and set development on the path for "T" connectors. OSK, stepped up the QC game and brought even lighter sail materials to the game while at least initially dropping the price point for a quality sail. John and Kite Forge stepped up with some great stability changes and brought a great new bridle innovation to the table. 

 

[frob]

On 3/2/2021 at 3:42 PM, Bob D said:

I'm wondering how differently they would fly.

The same can be said and asked for many products. 

How can you tell how a different shirt design will feel? How can you tell how a different vehicle will feel? How can you tell how a different restaurant will taste? How can you tell what a different fabric feels like? How can you tell how enjoyable a different music or movie will feel? 

Consider that ten people can use the same ingredients to make the same food, like all ten making burgers or all ten making tacos, and each person has results liked or disliked by others. None are wrong, or necessarily better or worse, but even with the same ingredients results vary tremendously. 

Two people may have similar tastes. Two other people may have different tastes, one a strong liking for an attribute that others don't care about. 

Others can describe their experience, but it is their own experience and not yours. Ultimately it is individual preference and personal tastes. 

 

Ultimately the only way to be certain is try it yourself and form your own opinion. 

On 3/2/2021 at 3:42 PM, Bob D said:

I'm wondering if the newer quads have an advantage over the older ones.

They have differences. 

The kites designed by expert pilots were trying to correct what they saw as flaws. Some people may have seen those as strengths. 

The kites from amateurs are often inconsistent, and differences are sometimes just differences rather than attempts to change specific elements. 

Some factors like design choices and craftsmanship and materials used can make a big difference. Some factors are subtle or barely noticed. Some factors ultimately make no difference at all. 

Try to attend shows, events, and meet with other people. Fly other people's kites and ask them questions. 

 

Some designs are far more popular for common reasons. There are reasons people like driving fancy sports cars or large SUVs versus a compact commuter car even though all are able to transport from site to site. 

[Edmond Dragut]

is an old Latin saying " gustibus non disputandum est " and is applying to everything. How frob already write try different brands, different sails, different frames combinations and you will find what is your choice. On the same time pay attention at lines brand, handles length, leaders and kites bridles. for masters this will be just tiny details but for most of us any of them is making a huge difference 

[Bob D]

Thanks, everyone! Quads seem to be more social than duals. It's not as fun to fly a quad by myself. I'm hoping I can find someone in the area to fly with. I DO know of a group in PA that's got some real good flyers. We have a friend there and I'm hoping that I can get there when COVID gets better (and I get the vaccine.)  

[Edmond Dragut]

COVID should not affect meeting other flyers except if a passing bottle is involved. I flayed all last year with Chicagokite club all over Illinois and non of us had problems. Learning alone is harder than under wing of an advanced flyer but is possible. Alone fly 15-20 minutes and after that take a break, yes, take a 5-10 minutes break to relax the brain. At the beginning your biggest enemy is the brain witch will try to follow and order the muscles to what, how and when do things. worst than that is if on that fly something is going great and after some repetitions where you will want to redo that "great thing" and is not happening frustration is kick in so...stop, step away, breath, relax and come back. fly how much you have time and at one point you will realize how advanced in confidence, control and skills you are     

[Paul LaMasters]

Work both sides of the window, if you do a loop to the right make the next one match it going now to the left,..... if you can only do an axel one way, and it is perfect, but the opposite it beyond you, then you cannot do it yet at all! Show you own that both ways

[Bob D]

I got the B Series about 10 years ago. I think the vented came with weights but I'd have to see if I can find them. I think they were meant to help with axels. I never got that far. I'm mostly trying to get better at the stop and starts for a clock rotation (I don't remember what it's called), ladders, and bicycles. (Not sure if that's what those are called either.) Axels are a bit beyond me right now. I might want to wait until I can get to York, PA to draw on the experience of the flyers there at STAP to help me on the journey. They've got quite an active group with a lot of good dual and quad flyers. It would be nice if we had that community in Upstate NY. (NYKE isn't that active in the Albany area.)

 

In any case, it's just fun to get out there and fly - glider kites, single lines like the 61/49, duals, and quads. I like 'em all! (I'm thinking about the Blue Moon Ichiban but I could get two duals or quads for the price of the Ichiban.)

[Bunduki Vlieger]

2 hours ago, Bob D said:

I got the B Series about 10 years ago. I think the vented came with weights but I'd have to see if I can find them. I think they were meant to help with axels.

2 grams. Pretty sure that also works without 

[mebeatee]

The weights were/are mildly interesting. I like them a lot better with a Rev2, and one of them has the weights....haven’t had that kite out in a while.....soon though....

I tried them both on the le and bottom of the vertical rods....and kept them on the verticals. One thing I did do is wrap some TP around them so they fit snugly inside the rod, otherwise they would be clonking around, and you could feel that clonk clonk through the lines...

They added a bit of “zestyness” to the kite and you can definitely feel the added bit of weight in any hovering position and slow inverted slides....again this on a Rev 2.

Aside from the obvious ongoing refinements and evolution of all the aforementioned kites which is fantastic, plus Rev finally upping their game (and following suit) with small refinements a number of years ago....ie sewing the le so no more Rev fray...lol, wear strips, the reflex system.....meh. All of the current manufacturers have their own spin (sic) on details and that’s way kewl....however most, with a couple of exceptions (Detox....very intriguing), still are of the 1.5 size which is ok...but not so much for us old...yeah I’m relatively that too...1 and 2 sized kite fliers. Don’t get me wrong as I have some very nice 1.5’s, but my Sedgwick 1, Robertshaw 1, and Zen are where it’s at for me.

bt

 

[riffclown]

I'm a huge fan of the 72" size..

[Exult]

15 hours ago, Bunduki Vlieger said:

2 grams. Pretty sure that also works without 

Weights? – didn’t know that there were any. I never got any that I can remember when buying my set of B-series. Yes, axels are possible to do without them as we know, but I find the Fulcrum more forgiving especially when learning axels and the bridleless Rev Indoor more naturally prone to do (flat) axels (not that the Rev Indoor otherwise would be a beginner friendly kite).

12 hours ago, mebeatee said:

I tried them both on the le and bottom of the vertical rods....and kept them on the verticals.

I most often use 2PT as downspars on my B-series std and midvent. Just out of habit I have the thick side of these light tapered spars closest to the LE. Perhaps I instead should have the narrow side closest to the LE and the slightly heavier side closest to the TE?

[Paul LaMasters]

Nope, the thick part of the 2PT goes next to the leading edge, you want the weight forward, slack is the key to a solid looking axel, step into it aggressively whilst you punch that forward handle thumB

slack you can wAlk in, not just catching the sleeve button on your shirt!

[midibot]

I had heard of weights in revs, but good to see updated specific reference here as I have neither tried nor even seen them before. (I expect a search might turn up more info.)

Another thing I have just learned here now: 2PT for verticals! On the outdoor kites? Does not the end of a 2PT, particularly the skinny end, just swim loosely in the connectors? I can see maybe going to a 2P as they cost a little less but have less of a fit issue, and are just marginally heavier. Judging from my experience with 2PTs in dual line kites, they are strong for their weight but comparatively fragile (and expensive to replace).

Which leads me to my next question: has anyone ever broken a vertical? Any kind of vertical? Other than just stepping on it? Be interested in thoughts on that. With apologies to OP for the diversion…

.

[Exult]

46 minutes ago, midibot said:

Does not the end of a 2PT, particularly the skinny end, just swim loosely in the connectors?

Didn’t notice any ”lateral slack” in the connectors. But perhaps I’m a kite pilot brute?  🦍

48 minutes ago, midibot said:

has anyone ever broken a vertical? Any kind of vertical?

Nope, I have never broken a vertical tube including the 2PT ones. I have heard that the verticals should be sensitive, so of course I switch to other downspars if it is windy and light downspars are no longer needed. Use them 50% of the time in the midvent though. I remeber having seen a picture in an old KL post somewhere where a downspar had snapped in three pieces.

51 minutes ago, midibot said:

Another thing I have just learned here now: 2PT for verticals!

At the time I ordered them I hadn’t seen any recommendations – I just wanted a light downspar. After receiving the 2PTs I removed a few cm to get the same tube length as the other tubes. I chose to remove the narrow side because it ”looked reasonable”.

[riffclown]

The old post where a spar snapped into 3 pieces was likely in a discussion on the Rev Green Trimmed Rods.

[Paul LaMasters]

Sloppy end-caps? A wrap or 2/layer of electrical tape to build it up thicker.

when you cut-down the tube, thru the tape barrier to prevent splitting, just leave it on the stick! ( but wipe off the carbon dust, fragments