Paul LaMasters Posted August 13, 2014 Report Share Posted August 13, 2014 The zen was crafted to carry a diamond frame & 20" magic sticks, if you have not experienced it in this configuration then it might as well not be assembled at all! Every complaint, flexibility of the frame, narrow wind range, glide lacking, slack line tricks difficult, whatever. I hope anyone willing to try it out steps forward at WSIKF. I am close to wearing out my 2nd Zen, the most used kite in the bag. There is simply no comparison, as stated by those who have done trials side-by-side and they are NOT "sticks" users. A completely different kite. Don't assume you can just slap a set from the 1.5 platform onto your Zen, they need to be long enough that the structure is supported. No wind to double digits, glides that go to the horizon, ability to absorb the turbulence swirls and an effortless catch on long lines. Seek me out and try it for yourselves. It's a completely unfair advantage, a zen moment in your life! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobB Posted August 13, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2014 Good info... the kite doesn't like to hold positions & just keep moving. I am going to have to change the way I fly on four lines. I am not a big input flyer, but I do like to stop, rotate, then go again, stop, slide, rotate, fly again... so, no stop, just fly. Now this whole thing about the frame... do the verts make any difference, or do I need to just swap out the leading edge ? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Barresi Posted August 13, 2014 Report Share Posted August 13, 2014 Leading edge is top importance, since the flex of the leading edge defines how much your sail changes shape in flight... As an experiment, hold any Rev by the leading edge (face up) and bend the leading edge like it does in flight, now look at the center trailing edge as you do so... Note how the trailing edge raises and lowers with the bending or unbending... That is the "open and close" of your throttle, this has a greater effect on your drive than the true "angle" of the leading edge. Also, when the trailing edge does open or close in flight (from bend), it changes what throttle position is needed on your controls (hand adjustment in flight)... Accordingly, I don't choose frames for weight, as much as I do for the amount of flex it will give me (moderated). If your LE is too flexible, you'll spill wind too easily... If it's too stiff, you won't be able to load effectively. Soak that voodoo in. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Barresi Posted August 13, 2014 Report Share Posted August 13, 2014 Additional info, mostly obvious but for posterity... Using one rod type as an experiment (say 3 wrap), longer leading edges (Rev 1 / Zen / 9') flex more than a 1.5, whereas Rev II or B2 kites (6' or so) flex the least... Again, effecting the range of throttle or variance of your airfoil... That's why I suggest having a P90 frame on tap for the B2 if you want real control, whereas the stock (1/4") frames will make the kite faster and slipperier (also fun). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Barresi Posted August 13, 2014 Report Share Posted August 13, 2014 When flying in light wind, the goal is to find that "cup" in the kite... The right flex, the right pressure, the right handle angle, and work to maintain that when driving (between glides when the kite goes flat)... Whump™ is based entirely on this principle. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Dowler Posted August 13, 2014 Report Share Posted August 13, 2014 JB - Thank for the more technical explanations!! I just fly them and don't know all the tech stuff, but I do know how it feels in my hands!! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHBKF Posted August 13, 2014 Report Share Posted August 13, 2014 Thank you my teachers. And the next day: So I just returned from a late afternoon inland mountains light wind session. Tried to duplicate Rob's session. Tried the Zen for a bit but the tall summer vegetation complicated the four line effort. Queen Anne's Lace & red clover blossoms snagged the lines repeatedly as I launched in the light puffs of wind. I was trying to use a narrow road as a landing strip to stay clear of them but the wind was at an angle to the road. So next I got out a SUL dualie & 50' lines. Went to an intersection where I had enough clear road to stay out of the weeds & get aligned with the wind. That was the solution. Flew the big dualie for about an hour. It was mostly an exercise in stepping back to turn & climb, then gliding out to gain those few steps back. Many times just being able to fly at all is a major accomplishment for me. Watching Rob's video I concentrate on how he's moving & not so much what the kite is doing. Been watching his videos for some time. It's starting to click, finally. It's not likely some of you think about it but a few of you are my kite flying heroes. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winged V Posted August 18, 2014 Report Share Posted August 18, 2014 With bbailey49 B Pro framed in diamonds works Very well in low/ no wind Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joespickles Posted August 19, 2014 Report Share Posted August 19, 2014 Always enjoy watching your flying, your soundtracks are always rocking also Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobB Posted August 19, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 19, 2014 Ralph, I have to wonder... which duallie were you flying ? I'm glad there was something in my video that you found helpful. Watching other's videos was one of the ways I learned... that and the core members here answering all the questions I had. Heck, they're still answering my questions, and helping me to get better ! Gavin... Kite Season is rapidly approaching, let me know if you guys want to come out to the Island and fly ! Rick, I might try Diamonds soon, but want to actually get the Zen up & flying before I decide to ring up Rev & order them. I have black race rods in my full sail 1.5 now, I wonder how much of a difference the Diamonds will make. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparkieRob Posted August 19, 2014 Report Share Posted August 19, 2014 I have Black Race in my B Std and Diamonds in my 1.5SUL and there is a difference. It's not huge but it's there. The major difference, for me, is the Diamonds load and unload faster in the lighter winds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbailey49 Posted August 19, 2014 Report Share Posted August 19, 2014 The diamonds are definitely "springier" than the black race. Lighter too. I still say the key to that Zen is going to be getting a different frame for it too. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHBKF Posted August 19, 2014 Report Share Posted August 19, 2014 Ralph, I have to wonder... which duallie were you flying ? I'm glad there was something in my video that you found helpful. Watching other's videos was one of the ways I learned... that and the core members here answering all the questions I had. Heck, they're still answering my questions, and helping me to get better ! Rob, the kite I chose that day was a Prism Quantum Pro Superultralight that I had just received from another KiteLife member. Some have commented that the kite is not as light as other SUL kites. But it is a full sail & I have had plenty of time on smaller kites in the light summer winds here in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia. I had begun dreaming of having a set of these fine kites a couple years ago & this one completed the set. Each kite seems to have something to add to my progress as I travel the path of the kite enthusiast. The little Prism 4D I have flown so much has kept me flying when nothing else seemed to work for me. Now what I have learned allows me to move on to larger, slower kites while staying on short lines. The smiling continues unabated. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobB Posted August 25, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 25, 2014 OK, finally got a chance to actually get the Zen in the air... The winds were 2-3mph. I flew the 1.5 full sail Black Race Rods first, and then the Zen. What a difference ! The Zen is much slower, and I can see what everyone is saying about the Zen rods being very springy. Well, this is going to take some getting used to, I usually don't keep a Rev moving, but the Zen seems to need need almost constant motion to stay in the air. And yeah, the Zen is BIG... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonfish Posted August 25, 2014 Report Share Posted August 25, 2014 This video reminds me of your ProDancer video. Slow, graceful movements flying around the wind window, no sudden movements. It's much harder to keep a Rev up in low winds if it's not moving, in general, IMO. Haven't flown a Zen yet, so don't know if it needs movement more than a 1.5. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobB Posted August 25, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 25, 2014 The inputs are definitely different. The Zen doesn't respond as quickly as the 1.5s, to either get going or to stop. When you give it a little 'whump', the springy rods do this strange 'double bounce' thing, and the Zen also tries to fight it's way to the side of the wind window and past, it takes a concentrated effort to bring it back in. Just a different flavor, I guess. Something new to get used to is always good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
makatakam Posted August 25, 2014 Report Share Posted August 25, 2014 Can't wait to try mine, should be here sometime in September. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Barresi Posted August 25, 2014 Report Share Posted August 25, 2014 Whump on a Zen... "Double tap" it... Once to flex SLIGHTLY, then again to connect with all four lines (tension favoring the top) while applying 60%-70% forward speed in your handle position. The second impact should have the effect of stabilizing the bounce, because everything is taut. The whole Whump / pump is probably 6"-14" of hand movement backward, the rest of the tension is gained by leaning and / or striding backward. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul LaMasters Posted August 27, 2014 Report Share Posted August 27, 2014 Dump that slack bridle slopiness altogether and add some structure to the frame, increase the response input speed and double or triple the wind range on your Zen, modifications are the secret not your flight technique to load the sail thru pre-movement, test and compare, see for yourself what is possible on this kite. No one wants a stock Zen after the comparison testing is completed, not a single individual yet! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Dowler Posted August 27, 2014 Report Share Posted August 27, 2014 Saw first hand what Paul can do - awesome is all I can say!! But you need to realize how much time he has put in to come to the conclusions he's made!! And it's what works for him!!! PS: I've already gone to a stiffer frame setup for a better sail load and less frame "sponginess"! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobB Posted August 27, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 27, 2014 Maybe the 'shortcomings' of the Zen just serve to amplify what I'm doing wrong. I could look at the silver lining of that, that learning to fly it as is will teach me better control. I will probably play with the leading edge sticks eventually, but I don't know about wanting to deal with the extra complexity of the Magic Sticks. Question on that... how important are the verticals ? Do they need to be swapped, too ? Most of my flying sessions are a half-hour, maybe 45 minutes. I resisted flying Revs for a long time because of the additional setup time vs. a duallie. The Magic Sticks seem to add complexity to the setup. I know it might sound crazy, but in my mind, every minute spent fiddling with the kite it one minute less of flying. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Dowler Posted August 27, 2014 Report Share Posted August 27, 2014 Nope - still use Zen verts! Sticks add a few seconds to the setup after the initial install! Paul uses Diamond rods! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Barresi Posted August 27, 2014 Report Share Posted August 27, 2014 Dump that slack bridle slopiness altogether and add some structure to the frame, increase the response input speed and double or triple the wind range on your Zen, modifications are the secret not your flight technique to load the sail thru pre-movement, test and compare, see for yourself what is possible on this kite. No one wants a stock Zen after the comparison testing is completed, not a single individual yet! Matter of taste... I hate the way magic sticks handle, particularly the co-dependence it creates between the wings, as well as the shifted-back center of gravity... Like Paul said, see what's possible on all spectrums, different strokes for different folks. Me, I'd rather improve my form. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Barresi Posted August 27, 2014 Report Share Posted August 27, 2014 I resisted flying Revs for a long time because of the additional setup time vs. a duallie. Longer set up time? No way! Takes at least half again the time for me to assemble a dualie vs a Rev, with comparable line handling time. We can go over this when we hook up next week, if you like. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Dowler Posted August 27, 2014 Report Share Posted August 27, 2014 I agree - not any more time setting up a Rev vs dualie!! For a comparison - A friend flew Paul's and mine almost back to back - his on 50# x 100', mine on 50# x 120'. After trying each - he liked mine!! Different strokes for everybody!! And no offence meant to you, Paul!! You've put the time in with your setup, and I can appreciate that! What you can do is IMPRESSIVE! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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