Alternatives to the Revolution

[povlhp]

Are there any good alternatives to the Revolution ? I see Barresi sent the welcome message, so I guess Rev Kites are the big thing here.

I know that there are at least one good chinese manufacturer that made a Rev clone, which could not be imported into the US, due to at least the design patent. Not sure how long that patent will run ? Here in Demark they last 25 years, so it should have just expired. The vented models are newer and would still have a valid patent. The good clones are priced very close to the Rev EXP, so not really any benefit there.

I see some european importers of the Freilein Transeye, which is an original chinese design, compatible with Revolution frames. It is priced around the same as Revolution 1.5SLE. It is supposedly of same build quality as the Rev B-series. Can't do flic-flac, but flies better backwards than the revs. Seems like germans like it. If the chinese can design something new, so can other companies.

I see multiple rev-lookalikes in Europe and China that looks cheaply made, starting from $75 (they look like waste of money). Adding cheap handles, lines etc and there is not a large percentage difference to the $179 the EXP costs on Amazon.

But apart from that, are there really any alternatives ? Other vendors with quality products ? Half size models at less than half price ?

I am new in this, but one thing it seems is, that price goes up faster than the square of the size. I have a cheap 2 meter span $12-$30 chinese dual line parafoil, that likes at least 4 m/s aka 8 kts wind. Been skydiving a lot until I got children 7 years ago, so a parafoil was obvious. I also flies drones aka multicopters, but they are best in low wind, and needs power and is not as easy to carry around.

But the rev videos on youtube really shows some fantastic control, that I would like to learn just a bit of. That is why I look for a quad line.

I am willing to spend the $200, but might even go the $335 route = B-series, which is the recommended set for beginners, it seems.

How solid are the frame ? Should I be afraid that it will break hitting the ground ? Should i expect to pay $100 for another fram initially or soon after I get it ? I will fly inland, turbolent air. Average wind speed is considered 4 m/s, but the other day it was 1,6 low, average around 3 m/s, gusting to 10 m/s. Normal is 3-4 m/s gusting to twice that.

What line length should I use as a beginner ? I hear 30 and 50 ft (10-15 meters). Some people use 80 ft (standard 25 meter), some cuts it down to 30 + 50 ft. I know competition formation is 120 ft.

[SparkieRob]

Stay clear of the copies and ripoffs. Get a second hand Rev. Even really beat up ones fly great.

80 feet is a good length to start on.

If you can, get a B Series set, ready to fly. That is: a kite, 2 complete frames, handles and lines. The extra frames expand the wind range AND down the track you could get just a "sail" for the spare frame.

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[SparkieRob]

Oh yes,

The crashes look and sound worse than they really are. Push your arms forward and step towards the kite takes a lot of drive out, lessens the energy of the impact.

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[Wayne Dowler]

Prices are not the "be all and end all" of this discussion. There have been many attempts to use the Rev design. WHY?? Because it works!!! Copies are just that - copies, not any new invention. I can't speak from a legal perspective, but Rev has done all the work, now others want to ride their coattails. Beware - you get what you pay for!! Any after market service after purchase? Factory backing? All they want is your money, plain and simple, after that you are on your own!

The kites last a long time if treated well. I still own and fly my first Rev, a Rev 1 over 15 years old! Take care of them and they will last.

Frames: tougher than you think! For most uses the 3 wrap frame will serve to do the job well. Handles all the beginner knocks and will continue to be of service as your skills grow. SparkieRob has the right idea on any quad - if you are gonna crash, don't pull, GIVE! That's right - GIVE! Throw the hands out, take some steps forward, and lessen the impact of the crash.

PS: most of any 2 line control method you know will go out the window with a Rev. A completely different animal in your hands controlled by moving the wrists, more than arms.

Good luck on any choices you make!

[povlhp]

I know I can't get around the rev. I just wonder why. The design is 25 years old. Should be possible to make a leap in such a long period, and not just improvements.

When looking at indoor competition I see different designs.

So maybe the dominance of the rev is not only because it is the best, but because of the dealers, support, spares, backwards compatibility etc.

I hear only good about the one Chinese brand. But as you mention, you are alone if you go that route.

So I will probably end up buying a B-series.

Still wonder why no alternatives. I like competition. Drives innovation and prices. And lover price hopefully more kite fliers.

[RobB]

If you want a quality alternative to a Rev, consider the ABS. I've heard good things about them, and I know they're made with quality. They're really nice looking, and priced similar to the Revs. One will be in my bag soon...

http://www.skysportdesign.com/

[John Barresi]

In all fairness, one could say that every dual line kite today is a ripoff of the Hawaiian, or Hyperkite, or whatever... After a while, even the patented zipper went up for open improvement and redesign.

Trick is, they kind of "broke the mold" with the functional design... There have been other quad designs not Rev-based, but none handle even close in my opinion... B or not.

I'll leave deeper discussion to others, but the B does represent a lot of evolution and refinement upon Rev flying, although some of it isn't always obvious to intermediate fliers.

Great topic, thanks for posting it Povl, and truly - welcome to the forum!

[John Barresi]

And yes, much of Rev's popularity comes from the backbone... Key fliers, educational resources, variety of parts, community efforts, etc - not seeing such forward effort from any of the Asian companies.

[makatakam]

I have designed and built kites similar to the Revs for my personal use -- see my avatar and my gallery photos on the Rev forum -- some fly well, others not very well. None of them fly as well as the Revolution kites. Reason? The design of the Rev has evolved from 95% perfect in 1988, to 99.9% perfect with the introduction of the B-Pro. Every different design has its own peculiarities and personality, but the Revolution design is the best blend of flight characteristics possible, so far. That is why there are so many imitations out there.

I'll let everyone know when I design something that flies better, but don't hold your breath while you wait; you'll turn blue.

[Jim Foster]

Are there any good alternatives to the Revolution

No......None......

Alternatives yes......Good alternatives,,,No

Bite the bullet and get a real Rev. You will never be sorry.

[povlhp]

I decided to go for one of the alternatives, just to try it. The Freilein Transeye is supposedly better for beginners, flies in a larger windrange than the unvented revs, but still >$200 RTF, so more than the Rev EXP. It is probably stupid, maybe I should go for a $100 RTF (risky, might scare people away from quads if it flies badly), or the B-Series which will have a nice resale value. Both are probably cheaper options if I decide it is not for me.

Also playing with drones / multicopters, and I got 2 from DJI (the leading vendor now) which had minor issues out of the box. Then bought a chinese Walkera X350 Pro instead. Under half price, 85% as good as the DJI. Spares half price. Having used the real DJI, I can feel the difference in the field every time, but the Walkera grows on me, as it is not as dumbed down / easy as the DJI.

And if I want to continue, there is no doubt that the Rev will be there somewhere down the road. And then I might be able to really appreciate the difference.

I see there is also an american quad called ABS, who is trying to get into the market, looks more symmetric, and probably also better at reverse flight.

[Paul LaMasters]

i have owned or flown all of the quads and built my own kites as well. I'm not a sponsored flier (except by my bride!) and pay full retailPLUS.

You can not beat the performance of the Revolution products. Nothing flies better in reverse or does the 3D movements made possible by that rev shape. I've had kites explode and the company has stuck by their product and replaced it. I've had some of their products for 20 years, they still fly fine and bring a smile to me face. At one point I was informed by the factory that we spent in excess of 25K with them directly, so they are perfectly willing to put-up with my outrageously unique expectations. See I only want it to say Revolution, I want the flight dynamics modified extensively so it flies how I prefer it. Can you tell me another company that would deviate from their approved standards for just one client's needs? Well me either!

We could get into support for the community too. Do you know how many times a knock-off kite company has sponsored competition trophies?, or bought your breakfast? Or picked you up from the airport and shared their home with you?

There's a reason Revolution Products are widely supported around the globe, it's because we are a family! We want this company's kite division to succeed and we will make life complicated for those individuals or firms that interfere with their profitability.

Lam's new kite the ABS doesn't fly in reverse HALF as well as the 1.5, even Rev's box-stock EXP model, please try before you buy and don't fall for my impressions, form your own based upon direct comparisons of like models.

-paul

[John Barresi]

We could get into support for the community too. Do you know how many times a knock-off kite company has sponsored competition trophies?, or bought your breakfast? Or picked you up from the airport and shared their home with you?

There's a reason Revolution Products are widely supported around the globe, it's because we are a family! We want this company's kite division to succeed and we will make life complicated for those individuals or firms that interfere with their profitability.

This is the real benchmark for me... The same one I try to hold all manufacturers and stores to... Are they involved in the community that supports them, or do they simply show up at the office and turn out product? I'm always in favor of supporting businesses that support kiting.

[Reef Runner]

All I can say, is I sure hope that other company, has a "Lolly" (She put the "C", in customer service) Can't begin to tell you how many of us she has helped ! Good luck............

[povlhp]

I see where you are coming from. I am not involved in it as a sport, but more as a hobby, and hopefully I can have some fun with my kids.

As a beginner with nowhere to go and try things out I don't have any commitment to the sport, but would like to see more kites. The situation now don't attract too many new users. There are probably 10-100 times more people with a drone than kites around here.

[Jim Foster]

povlhp

Has it occurred to you that not one person here has suggested that you not buy a Rev or that you buy some other kite? The fliers who have taken the time to post here are some of the most experienced on the planet.

You may want to re-think your purchase.

[povlhp]

Here I get the impression, that most are probably very devoted, some probably semi-pros. And especially in the US Revolution has almost all the market share. I am not a pro-level. I am a hobbyist and newbiew, and might never get to the level where I feel much difference between a $100 clone and the Revolution.

I am fine with Rev doing like the iPhone, 80% of the profits, the rest shared between some other names, and then a lot of low/no profit clones too bad to really buy.

I am in Europe, in a small country with no Revolution resellers. Would have to get from Germany or the UK. And if I look at german language websites (I read it perfectly, but don't write it as well), I see more diversity in choice, and recommendations are not as much to one side as here. But the Revolution is clearly the way to go for competition stuff.

I really would like to see more kite fliers out there. So a lower entry point, or more diversity is one way I think we can grow the hobby (and as a result probably the sport). I live in a country with ok wind most of the time, but I seldom see kites, unless I go to Rømø, which is an island with a beach that is probably 2 km wide and 5 km long, mostly packed damp sand. There are always lots of kites. Mostly flown by germans on holiday, or who just drives the 30 minutes over the border to fly.

I wonder why there are sold 100 or 1000 drones for each kite ? The buyers are mostly stupid type, who knows nothing about drones. It is just a toy. We need to get the kites made cool. And not much more expensive than drones, which are OK, but difficult to fly, below $100. And the videos of the quad-lines I see will attract people if they get out to a wider audience, and the price to entry is lower. Not all toys need to be high-tech. Lego is growing like they never grew before.

Revolution Kites will benefit if we can double the number of kites sold, even cheap china stuff, use twice and in the garbage, as long as they are reasonable flyable and controllable. Some people will move to something better.

I get the impression that china kites are not the enemy they are painted to be. Most lower quality, some OK, few good, no customer service/support/spares. But still a way to get people interested, at least as long as they are reasonable flyable. And then they will move up.

When I was skydiving (150 sq ft of kite, were also doing formation flying with open parachute), we also had some new companies trying to enter both the parachute market, but also the accessories market (ProTrack, AADs). There were room for the better of the new entrants, but I don't think the big names lost much. Much development pace increased, and we all got better cheaper products, produced in larger volumes.

With the Cypres AAD (life saving device), there were many issues with the competition, probably a few deaths. When I was in the US once, it was mandatory with an AAD on Tandems. The DZ I was on had had issues with the new US made brand, and all tandem masters were told to turn it off, as that was considered the lowest risk. Yet people wanted the cheaper alternative, and they got a marketplace and got the bugs ironed out. So people are willing to risk their life to save a few dollars.

Don't see the cheaper quads as a threat, see them as an opportunity to grow the hobby. There is always a market for the good products.

[Paul LaMasters]

if you lived near me you would fly kites owned by other people until such time as that ownership cost wasn't even a factor of consideration! ("perceived value") I don't want you on any kite you bought yourself, until you know exactly what you prefer. Are you a SLK guy?, a dualie pilot?, big show kites?, fighters?, a quad-head?, do you prefer indoors?, can you afford to travel to kiting events?

Please don't buy a cheap kite, or used or even a beginner model,... No wait until you know exactly what you want and until that acquisition price is not even relevant anymore! Buy the best kite money can get, fly OPKs until you know you are hooked deep and gladly would eat ketchup sandwiches all summer saving your lunch funds for the kite of your dreams. I'm in a club, a bunch of us each have a bunch of kites. Explore our bags, we will do the same if you are living near us and stay a member long enough. You help others, just as we were ourselves offered this same opportunity.

In my opinion cheap kites are a serious threat, their poor performance and quick destruction in case of minor impact turn new people off. There's always a market for good products, even if that cost of admission limits how many can included. There are lots of kite flying choices, some of 'em are tons of fun and basically disposable. It is not about a kite for competition it is about a kite that is worthy of any activity or skill set. Just because you can't do it yet, doesn't mean it's impossible tomorrow.... it can do anything if you CAN.

I don't want you to learn how to drive by using that old school bus in the Walmart parking lot. Take the v12 Ferrari out onto the test track and then scoot thru some winding roads with all traffic blocked off. You make some mistakes and crash, hey we all do that, even years later!

You can't get into a high quality piece of flight dynamics with inferior materials. Oh, you could cut down the associated labor costs overseas sure, maybe even craft robotic machinery to replace the humans entirely.

You could buy all the right stuff and do it yourself as a one-off, but the significant developmental increases comes from input by your clients over years. So you will be making all the choices to suit yourself in the beginning. You could make it anyway you want, but the first one you should probably start from some known point of reference. What is the gold standard you're trying to perfect or improve even further upon? Should that existing gold standard be the cheapest price or the best product money can buy?

If a bus can take you downtown for a few bucks, how can anyone justify buying a mercedes benz? Should MB have been more concerned when the Smart car was introduced? They could have expanded into this new market as the gold standard of luxury.

I see no reason why the best should ever be concerned with what everyone else does or how much they charge. Welcome to the gold standard of sport kite performance. It is not about the cost of admission it's about the rewards of Revolution ownership. I have believed in the words "perceived value", at least ten hours a week for the last 21 years!

[povlhp]

At a german forum, the beginner recommendations are:

1. Classic Rev shape.
typen: rev 1.5 all types, rev 1.2 (Homemade), "baSic", rev I,...

2. skyknife (local german product)
3. vamp devil
4. revolution blast
5. ABS von Lam Hoac
6. rev II

limited usability for beginners:

7. dropkick 2.0
8. mojo

Elsewhere the Freilein Transeye is considered very good for beginners and intermediate, Will easily forgive small mistakes. Not considered the best trick quad.

But there the experienced guys claim that #2-8 has no worse workmanship than the Rev. But the clones is of variable quality. Most kite shops in Germany seems to offer alternatives. Rev parts also considered too expensive, especially for beginners. Sky Shark rods are fine for lower skill levels. $9 instead of $15 for a rod means a lot if the beginner keeps breaking them.

Completely unsuitable for beginners are: tarantula, hypnotic quad, shockwave, power-blast, synergy deca ...

So there seems to be many alternatives. But in the US, or among the experienced, there is only one kite to rule them all.

There is also some that recommends ockert Profiline as the minimum standard for lines (German brand), cheap lines gives more problems. 38 daN recommended over 70 daN as they are ligther, and sufficient for most beginners. Nice to get attention on importance of line quality.

[SparkieRob]

#4 Rev Blast and #6 Rev2 (currently it's a B2) I wouldn't recommend these to start on. The Blast is a powerful kite and would be a handful. The B2 is a very responsive and quick kite and would be very discouraging to start on.

A Rev1 would be a better alternative to the above mentioned Revs.

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[RevRookie]

Paul

It would be great if you could clone yourself (and your collection) and distribute yourself evenly across the country. I am in a city of 1 million people and I know of 2 other Rev fliers and have flown with someone once. There is absolutely no way that I could try any kite before I bought it, and I end up buying over the internet because kites are a small corner filled with Chinese junk in the back of a hobby store. There is no one to teach me when I do make a purchase and I drive 1000 km across the country to go to a kite festival to see other fliers. That is the reality in most of the world. This forum and the instructional videos are the only reason I am still in the game and haven't stuffed the handles where the sun don't shine in disgust.

Rev's do have a steep learning curve. I wish that I HAD bought a Chinese beater first and then moved up to the Rev. A beginner has to work a long time to appreciate the subtle improvements that a real Rev brings - so I would rather get my first 1000 crashes out of the way on a kite that I don't really care about. I really believe you need to buy the kite that the people around you are flying so that you become a member of the community. If there are no people around you - well you buy what you think you need and you muddle through until it either works for you or you give up.

Povlhp has said there might be a Rev in his future - if he reaches that point thru another kite then he will just appreciate the Rev that much more.

[Jim Foster]

Well guys (you know who you are)........

It is in our nature to try to keep someone from making a mistake which might cause them to get sour on flying by buying something that might not do the job.

It's a "horses and water thing"

Some folks are so bent on making that mistake, for whatever reason, that they must be left alone to do just that.

I'm out.................

[John Barresi]

The one thing that does irk me about some Rev fliers is the "exclusive" energy they send out... A good product will prove itself out, especially when it's not implied that someone is stupid for buying anything else - they just making the best decision for them, based on their own finances, location and experience.

All are welcome, as is ongoing discussion from all angles.

I for one can't wait to hear about your experiences with the Chinese kites, especially after you've had a chance to compare side by side with others, and time with other able quad fliers who really understand flight dynamics.

[makatakam]

It is not important which quad-line kite you purchase; they are all difficult to fly for anyone who is just beginning. Some kites, because of their design, are very difficult to control, even for experienced fliers. Talk to the people on the German forum and buy something that is easy to learn. Stay away from small-sized and fast-speed kites, as these will give you very little time to react. For the same reason, use lines that are 30m or longer. Larger kites and longer lines are more forgiving to beginners. Finally, buy what you can afford, but remember that it is favorable to get a good quality used kite than a poor quality new kite.

Most of all, keep smiling, have fun and don't forget to breathe.

[RobB]

I started flying quad line foil kites because it was a rush to get dragged around in the sand. That's how I learned basic quad line control. From there, I got a Spirit Quad. I broke a few sticks with that kite, but once I got basic control down, I lost interest in quads for a long time, my concentration was focused on learning how to fly dual line kites. I came back to quad line flying because I wanted something that could fly in 20mph+ winds with ease. As I learned more about control of the vented Rev, my interest grew again because there was just so much more to flying a Rev than the NTK Spirit offered. I resisted Revs for a long time, but now have 4 in my bag, almost one for every wind condition. Either an Xtra-vent Rev or ABS to be added soon...