Hand position

[asburyparkjohn]

I made that mistake recently with a new pilot I was teaching on the beach - I gave him a 50' set I use - I normally fly 40-60'. He had the plastic handles, packaging line and 75' - the usual. He said how much more difficult it was with 50' even with spectra 50#X50' in 5-6 mph. I forgot ... going from 75' to 50' is a nightmare for a rookie ... I forgot ...

[dmcneil]

I am trying to keep my hands by my sides a little more. I am working on holding a fade and find I nosedive a lot. Being able to throw my arms forward while taking a quick step helps minimize the impact. It still feels a little unnatural. Also, I find I can axle better due to the slack coming easier.

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[asburyparkjohn]

Another helpful move when learning the fade is try doing a 360* with your hands - what? Try this as you hands move forward do a 360* small circle rotation - clockwise - then continue the full extenstion out with both hands. Taking steps forward. Keep an eye on the nose and take baby steps forward during this routine. Sooner or later it will nose dive down ... its natural ... practice holding the fade for 30 seconds to a minute ... if INLAND ... its a tough trick to hold for any duration ... in the beginning. It is more difficult moving your feet and hands - TOGETHER.

APJ

[esinger]

I'm bringing back this topic because it's been pointed out that I've been crossing my hands while tricking.  There's some good advice here and I'm going to start making videos of myself flying (not the kite) to adjust my technique.   One reason I cross my hands is because my pops are towards my body.   After watching some videos of other flyers, I see pops should be downward.   I'm going to start imagining myself playing drums with sticks for my pops.

Another interesting thing I've also noticed,  when I'm not thinking so much about performing a trick,  I end up doing tricks that I amaze myself with.   I'm like "Dude, did some other flyer temporarily take over my body?".  If I "try" to execute a trick,  I normally fail.

[esinger]

I also noticed while watching videos of other flyers that there seems to be two ways of flying with straps.   The first is of course having the straps around your wrists (which is what I normally do), the other is holding the strap ends in your hands.   Typically seen in Dodd Gross videos. 

[John Barresi]

Very astute on the “drums hits”, same thing I teach. [emoji1303]

For straps, I alternate but generally favor holding the straps in my fingers, or wrapped around three of my fingers.


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[John Barresi]

Your thought about “taking over my body”... Also superb.
Fake it til you make it, channel your favorite flier(s). [emoji869]
That’s what I did, and still do when I want to change styles.


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[esinger]

42 minutes ago, John Barresi said:

For straps, I alternate but generally favor holding the straps in my fingers, or wrapped around three of my fingers.
 

I've tried many years ago to mimic Dodd's flailing straps, but could not really make it work for me. At the time (and still) there weren't any really good dual line flyers near me, so Dodd's flight school on VHS (LOL) was only way to learn.   I may still have that tape....

Anyway, depending on the winds, I either fly with the straps on my wrist or hold the top ends in my hands.  Even finger straps I just hold in my hand instead of the using the finger loops.

[John Barresi]

The Lumo kites guy is a strong proponent of wrist straps, no finger holds.

[esinger]

16 minutes ago, John Barresi said:

The Lumokites guy is a strong proponent of wrist straps, no finger holds.

He does make nice comfortable straps, however you're right there's not anyway to use them except the way they are designed.

[SparkieRob]

I was a "round the wrist" for a long time, now I'm finding results holding "3 fingers". Still feels a little foreign but working through it.

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[esinger]

What's the advantage of the 3 finger strap hold?

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[John Barresi]

More lever work with your wrists.

I do a lot of fluid rolls with my hands during pitch tricks, bending the wrist up or down to shift the point and amount of tension. Tip stands for example, I bend my wrists down alternately to keep balance on the tip.

[Breezin]

Been trying that channeling thing too. Guy named Crash McDoogle  keeps showing up!! Flew my foil in 20 plus yesterday. Used the wrist wrap with heavy gloves, Switched back to finger hold real quick to keep from kissing the earth. Winds calmed down a bit and flew the Nighthawk still using the 4 finger hold.Kite would shutter pretty hard coming thru the window so I was right on edge. Iv'e always tried to keep my hands vertical. When doing lighter inputs is it best vertical or horizontal ? Horizontal in the power zone seems less control so Iv'e never tried unless with a bar and foil.

[esinger]

More lever work with your wrists.
I do a lot of fluid rolls with my hands during pitch tricks, bending the wrist up or down to shift the point and amount of tension. Tip stands for example, I bend my wrists down alternately to keep balance on the tip.

I see your point John. I have some thoughts on possibly making a hand strap that might be better for me and give the same results.

Thanks!

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[John Barresi]

For the record, just like on quad, I still rotate through several different grips depending on what I’m doing with the kite.  

[Wayne Dowler]

When I flew more dualie than quad - I had 3 different strap sets, one for each type of kite in a wind range. My light wind Prism Ozone had these golf ball sized grips that fit in my hand really nice. Just held onto the ball. I could run the attaching line out my fingers or out the front of my hand, depending on wind. Got them back in the '90s, never have seen them recently.

My medium wind kite, a Flexifoil Stranger was a beast and I used those contoured wrist straps, mostly worn over my wrists, but occasionally in my fingers. Again all dependent on winds.

My high wind Prism Alien was pretty mild pulling, so I got away using regular wrist straps with it. Again either over the wrists or in the fingers depending on winds.

As with my quads - it's still all about what you feel when you pick up the lines!  IMHO  YMMV

[Exult]

I wonder why finger straps (two fingers) are not more popular. Well it gives you, if you allow, a finger tip feeling. Compared to wrist straps it frees the finger movement from the contact of the thumb. Use a pair with snug fitting or press the index and long finger together to hold it. Strength is not an issue except for the largest kites in harder wind (you are quite strong in these two fingers at the second joint) - If required just fold the second joint of your finger around the finger straps when you really need to hold it tight. Do I live by this? - Not at all, tend to use whatever strap/handle that happens to sit at the end of the line. Also gloves and in worst case mittens can interfere or make it not possible to use the finger straps or affect how you deal with wrist straps.

On 12/17/2017 at 7:01 PM, John Barresi said:

Very astute on the “drums hits”, same thing I teach.

If I'm not mistaken, you recommended (or performed yourself?) a drum hit for a fade launch. Any other tricks benefiting from drum hit like input?

21 hours ago, John Barresi said:

I do a lot of fluid rolls with my hands during pitch tricks, bending the wrist up or down to shift the point and amount of tension.

Will at least think of if I can replace some arm movement with wrist movement here. Still a flick flak rookie though or did you mean "plain" back flipping as well?

15 hours ago, Breezin said:

Been trying that channeling thing too. Guy named Crash

Beware of this Crash person . I have noticed that he tends to like framed kites and rocky or frozen bare ground in harder wind.

[RobB]

I have dropped a line flying with the straps in my fingers more than once. Sometimes I get so into the flying that I 'forget' to hold on. That's why I almost always wrap the wrist strap around my wrist, or the finger straps around my fingers. Dodd is a drummer, and that might explain his grip method. I've tried his method, but just like more control over the lines with my index fingers on the leaders.

[makatakam]

The hand position that really works well for my style of flying, including single dual and quad line kites, whether doing compulsory figures or freestyle, high or low wind conditions, on the beach or on a field of mowed grass, when the sun is high and the weather is hot, or at night when the moon shines bright and cool breezes blow, winter summer spring or fall is at the ends of my arms, attached to my wrists.

I'll bet you read the whole thing, didn't you?

[John Barresi]

3 hours ago, Exult said:

On 12/17/2017 at 10:01 AM, John Barresi said:

Very astute on the “drums hits”, same thing I teach.

If I'm not mistaken, you recommended (or performed yourself?) a drum hit for a fade launch. Any other tricks benefiting from drum hit like input?

In truth, I think I make most of my dual line inputs this way with the exception of corners and curves.

The key is "pulling" makes power and gives the kite more air resistance, "giving" reduces power and reduces resistance.

The "drum hit" basically strikes the end of the line(s) you want to effect, neither loading or unloading the kite, allowing better rotation in place without so much give and take needed. To complement this, I also tend to fly a much more "nose back" or "bridle tuned down" setting to allow smaller inputs and easier stalls. Most pilots these days probably fly with the bridle tuned a full 1"-3" higher (nose toward pilot) than I would have mine set.

3 hours ago, Exult said:

On 12/17/2017 at 3:17 PM, John Barresi said:

I do a lot of fluid rolls with my hands during pitch tricks, bending the wrist up or down to shift the point and amount of tension.

Will at least think of if I can replace some arm movement with wrist movement here. Still a flick flak rookie though or did you mean "plain" back flipping as well?

All of it, interchangeable, mixed in with pull / push at the right times.

The key here is economy of movement, more result for less input.