Winding up lines

[websherpa]

I've got about a 10% success rate at winding my lines so they end up even at the end of my winding, and no clue if I'm adding twists to the lines. In general my lines are wound around each other no more than 2 times. Any simple advice on how to wind my lines properly?

[John Barresi]

Yep.

Universal for dual or quad, the only differences:

1 - Dual line kite should go face down to be secure, nose into the wind.

2 - Don't stagger the lines for dual line.

3 - Don't pair the loops for dual line, treat them as you would the two final loops for quad.

The tutorial is 10 minutes long, but the principles are important and we've had rave reviews on the explanations given.

[John Barresi]

Also, it is typical for the ends of the lines to not match up exactly right when fully wound... It's natural, we don't always draw equal tension into both lines while winding, the winder takes up more or less line depending on where the line is spooled on it, etc, etc.

The trick is to eliminate the variables, which is what the above tutorial really speaks to.

For dual line, I would actually start winding from the handle end, down to the kite (as long as it's secure)...

When I set up, I put the kite face down and nose into the wind, with the lines coming out the back and up over the top as I walk up wind...

Pulling the line off the winder as I go, I take care not to tension the kite yet (accidental launch), until I get to the end...

Once there, I take my straps off the winder, untwist the lines (identify R-L), then walk back with hands even until the kite flips over and is ready for launch.

I really ought to do a tutorial on this "stakeless" set up and tear down method sometime.

[websherpa]

Perfect. I will abandon the figure 8 pattern which I think was causing 1 line to drop and the BIG difference in line lenths by the end.

[RobB]

I wind my dual line sets figure 8 style, and my quad line sets like John suggests. If you figure-8 with attention & care, they come out even (as long as your lines are even). And if they don't... so what ? They unroll perfectly, without snags. John's method is faster, but almost always snags when you're rolling them out. I always use a stake, I don't know how well it works with the stake-less method...

[West Australian]

With practice you willl find what works best for you.

I used to take 20 min to set up Quad lines and kite.

Now it takes less than 5 min.

[Spence Watson]

I wind my dual line sets figure 8 style, and my quad line sets like John suggests. If you figure-8 with attention & care, they come out even (as long as your lines are even). And if they don't... so what ? They unroll perfectly, without snags. John's method is faster, but almost always snags when you're rolling them out. I always use a stake, I don't know how well it works with the stake-less method...

To be fair, I wind up using the same method as John. My lines very rarely snag while I unwind the lines. 90% of the time, I hook on the lines, turn around, and walk away as the lines unravel without any stops.

[Wayne Dowler]

Perfect. I will abandon the figure 8 pattern which I think was causing 1 line to drop and the BIG difference in line lenths by the end.

If you have that big a difference after winding, are you sure both lines are equal?

[John Barresi]

I wind my dual line sets figure 8 style, and my quad line sets like John suggests. If you figure-8 with attention & care, they come out even (as long as your lines are even). And if they don't... so what ? They unroll perfectly, without snags. John's method is faster, but almost always snags when you're rolling them out. I always use a stake, I don't know how well it works with the stake-less method...

Respectfully - this might be your experience, but almost never, ever happens to me.

3 minutes to set up, 3 minutes to tear down, rarely any snags.

Straight or 8 makes no difference to frequency of snags, although the tension someone might use with either one (specific to their own style and ergonomics) certainly can affect it.

[West Australian]

I find the major cause of snags is the knots on the Sleaving.

I always make sure they are out of the way before winding the lines on.

[Wayne Dowler]

I'm using John's method for winding my quad lines exclusively now, but with a couple of individual quirks!

1. - I color code all my lines! Colors are the same for top right and bottom right, top left, bottom left, kite and handle ends!! Yeah, I know it sounds tedious, but it keeps everything straight in my mind!! After a stroke, everything helps!

2. - I use 2 stakes for my handles, 1 for each! Helps keep them separated as I wind or unwind!

3. - I place a finger between sets of lines to keep them separated as I unwind! At the end, I have 2 sets, left and right, ready to attach to the kite!

Anyway, this works for me and I do it EVERY TIME, EXACTLY the same!!

[John Barresi]

Anyway, this works for me and I do it EVERY TIME, EXACTLY the same!!

Pure gospel - whatever works and gets you flying without undue stress, it's all good.

Flying or working with the gear, it's worthwhile to experiment - know for yourself.

[RobB]

I don't think it's the method of winding that causes or prevents snags, I think it's the 4 lines on one winder. I only have 2 quad line sets (that I've used recently) and they both snag when I'm walking them out. Maybe it's the knots on the sleeving, sometimes the keeper bungee gets in the way, but most of the time 3 lines come off the horn on the winder, and one stays behind, quickly causing a snag.

Like I said, I don't think it's the method of winding, and John's straight wrap method is faster. The only reason I figure 8 my dual lines is because I always have... force of habit. Everything I do with quad line flying is relatively new to me, so I try to follow all the hints, tricks & tips of the pros... I'll have to try straight wrapping a dual line set, and notice how it pays out the next time. Maybe the subject of another video ?

[--Pete]

Must86, I wonder if you are winding the lines on too tightly or too loosely, so that one or more lines gets pulled under a previous wrap. This could happen with either a straight or figure-8 wind and with 2 or 4 lines on the winder. Take some time to walk the lines out very slowly watching carefully as each wrap comes off the winder. You may be able to see what is causing the snag if you unwind with a light enough touch. Then you will be able to decide what to adjust in the way you wind them on.

[Reef Runner]

Now for my $0.02 worth:

The tutorial tells it all. Look at it, study it, and improvise, if that works for you ! Your successful set-ups will increase tremendously, but you've got to develop a system and stick to it - "exactly the same - every time".

I too use John's method of unwinding and winding quad lines, almost exactly, well kinda. One oddity that I have developed, is that I always remove my handles, prior to wind up. Quad line, dual line, whatever, I remove the handles, straps, etc, prior to wind up. I know, I know (I did mention oddity, right). Anyway, it just makes for a neater, more compact package, for me. (it's a personal thing, I suppose)

As for quad line color coding, my top lines (loops) are always sleeved in "lime", my bottom loops are always "pink". No good reason, other than that's just the color sleeving that was available, when I purchased a quantity, sometime back. Kinda colorful, actually. In addition to the sleeving colors, my "right" lines, will always have a "red" Sharpie mark, somewhere on the loop, as well as my right handle, which is likewise identified with a quick spray of red enamel, on the lower half, and yes, all of this is done simply for quick identification purposes. To me: Lime means TOP ! Pink means BOTTOM ! Red means RIGHT ! Always, yes, always !!!

(As for dual lines, my right line will always have a red Sharpie mark, somewhere on the sleeved loop, my strap will have a red Sharpie dot)

My procedure to wind up a set of quad lines is as follows: I first land the kite inverted, and then I stake the top of the handles. I then disconnect the lines from one handle, and loop that pair together by lark's heading the "bottom" loop, to the "top" loop, and sliding the lark's head down to the knot, in the top loop. I then put the kite stake through that top loop, and back into the ground. Then I remove the lines from the other handle, looping them together in the same manner (bottom looped to top), and drop that top loop, over the same stake. Now the kite is staked through the sleeved top loops only. Then I walk downwind to the kite, and disconnect the lines from one side only. I then loop those two together, but this time, the "top" loop is lark's headed to the "bottom" loop (which is exactly opposite, from the other end of the lines). This equalizes the two lines, lengthwise, as they were initially offset, due to looping one line to the other. I then drop that looped pair on the ground, and proceed to disconnect the lines from the other side of the kite, again lark's heading the top loop to the bottom loop. Now, the four lines are paired up, and can be handled as if they were two. Prior to connecting them to the winder, I like to pull then gently, pulling against the kite stake, back at the other end, just to make sure that everything is somewhat straight and parallel. I then attach the two bottom loops, there at the kite end, to the winder, and begin winding back to the stake, just as if I were winding a dual line set (hopefully you have that mastered by now). As mentioned earlier, I normally use the straight wind, with an occasional figure-8 thrown in here and there, but again, that is entirely a personal preference. I make sure that I am always winding from the kite, back to the handles.

When it's time to fly again, the handle end of the lines will be on the outside. I carefully pull off a couple of winds, disconnect one looped pair and attach it to the appropriate handle, then I do the same for the other pair. Then I stake the top of the handles and walk the lines out to the kite and attach them in their correct positions, one side at a time,. Top to top, bottom to bottom, right to right, left to left. If you color code adequately, and understandably, there will never be a question as to what goes where. Figure out something that works for you, and stick with it forever. Don't worry what others are doing, do what works for you, and what you can remember, and you too, will find, as John mentioned.........3 minutes in, 3 minutes out................piece of cake.............

This is how I like my line sets to look when I pack them up !

[websherpa]

When I was winding like JB demonstrated in the vid I didn't have any binding or excessive wrapping between the two lines. I saw some threads on the web asking about the need for line swivels and someone noted you don't need them if you wind correctly and then demonstrated the figure 8 method.

Every time I've tried I think I end up with 1 line a full wrap ahead of the other with one line terminating 8 or more inches earlier than the other. The lines can't be more than 2mm off in length. I've tried to be careful but every time (or close to) I end up with messed up wraps. Yes I still get to fly but un winding when they are mis-matched like that takes forever and is downright frustrating.

With the advice to wrap and unwrap in like manner it sounds like I don't need to worry about lines twisting on themselves.

[John Barresi]

Alright, I went around the horn on this once before - would be too easy if I could find it now.

==

Okay, follow this break down if you will...

1. With no wraps in the line, you secure the ends of the lines together on the winder at one end.
2. You hold that winder securely without rotating it at all during the winding process, mostly moving up and down as you wind.
3. Ideally you have the other end separated or secured while winding so they don't jump or twist during the winding process.
4. You arrive at the other end, picking up and finishing the wind without putting in more than 1-2 twists during handling.

Right... Now... Reverse that...

1. Start the unwind and secure the ends (straps, whatever) without adding more than 1-2 twists while you do it.
2. Being sure you don't rotate the winder after securing the lines, walk away... If it snags, use your hand to pull off evenly.
3. Arrive at the other end and remove the loops (straps, whatever) from the winder without letting them spin.

NOW, the real secret...

Most of the wraps you might see in your lines at this point aren't real wraps, most are generated by opposing rotations in the lines, for whatever reason.

The clean up portion...

1. With the farthest ends secured, separate the loops, spread them apart and pull some good tension into the lines, jiggling it occasionally to drop out some of the faux wraps.
2. Then, HOOK UP YOUR KITE (again minimizing the number of times you let the lines spin around each other during handling), make sure the kite is secure, then walk to the handles.
3. Once at the handles, pick them up without launching, gently wiggle one so you can verify R-L controls.
4. Having R-L in the correct hands, spread your hands apart and again, jiggle the lines.

Having done all this, assuming the flier kept an eye on the loops during handling to avoid adding twists during handling, you should have 1-4 wraps.

From there, obviously launch (having already verified R-L controls) and spin them out, or do it hand over hand on the ground.

==

The formula that makes this work is eliminating variables during handling and storage... If you didn't spin the flier end of the lines (secure on the stake) and didn't spin the kite end of the lines (secured in hand when disconnecting from the kite), it doesn't matter what you do in the middle if you draw enough tension and shake out the faux wraps.

If you still have what look like a lot of wraps, there are only a few explanations:

1. When individual lines (R or L) have become twisted enough, that they are "grabbing" onto the other line... This is worked out by separating your lines and separately running down the length of each one with your fingernail to work out the twists (the opposite end will spin like mad when you've pushed the twists down far enough).
2. The lines are so old and ratty that they're just gripping onto each other too much.
3. The lines are wet, which also causes them to stick to one another.
4. Or of course, you've unknowingly let one end or the other twist during handling.

Pure mathematics, I assure you.

[John Barresi]

Addendum - the straight scoop on straight vs figure 8 winding.

==

Straight winding can condition the lines to "lean one way" toward twisting in the middle (again - ends have not rotated), which causes lines to grip each other.

Frankly, I don't find it to be a tangible issue when lines are handled correctly - maybe once a year, I'll run my fingernail down a set, if I feel a problem.

I prefer straight winding simply due to the ergonomics of it, and how the lines lay on the winder (flatter, tighter and arranged more easily).

==

Figure 8 winding basically conditions the lines to "lean" one way, then the other, then the other, etc, basically minimizing any added gripping behavior.

Other than the difference in ergonomics, personal taste and general mechanics of it, there is no functional difference with regard to true wraps.

==

Key - don't spin either end during winding, don't spin either end while unwinding, the center could have a veritable party (mixed straight and 8 winding, hands going up and down) and it still has to pull out if it's not tangled (which only comes from dropped lines, sloppy winding, etc).

[John Barresi]

Congrats, this article has been pinned - great universal subject, thanks for bringing it up.

[Reef Runner]

Works for me

ps......But honestly, it didn't at first, but that was entirely my fault. Once I watched, and "digested", the video on "Line Management", I've had no problems since..........and there's nothing wrong with going out in the back yard (or front), and practicing, over and over and over. And don't worry about the curious neighbors, you might win one over to the Dark Side

[mystainedskin]

I had one card winder that I finally isolated...had a small edge that would catch and snag all the time. Other than that...love the video. Watched it BEFORE I ever got a kite.. and use the method shown every time.

[flyguy]

As been said practice cuts time for line management, but I still do a walk through either visually or with my fingers. I seem to always have a drooping brake line, Part of the fun ... to adjust...

[makatakam]

Don't worry what others are doing, do what works for you, and what you can remember, and you too, will find, as John mentioned.........3 minutes in, 3 minutes out................piece of cake.............

I wind from the kite end to the handles and leave the handles attached. Takes less than 5 minutes to set up or break down 120' lines, including the kite frame.

Develop your own routine and when you are satisfied, don't change.

Snagging lines on the winder is more than likely due to uneven lines. Watch the line management vid again, and get all your lines within 1/4" of each other, dead-on is even better. Also makes a difference in the way the kite flies.

Breathe, smile and keep on flying.

[Reef Runner]

Don't worry what others are doing, do what works for you, and what you can remember, and you too, will find, as John mentioned.........3 minutes in, 3 minutes out................piece of cake.............

I wind from the kite end to the handles and leave the handles attached. Takes less than 5 minutes to set up or break down 120' lines, including the kite frame.

Develop your own routine and when you are satisfied, don't change.

Snagging lines on the winder is more than likely due to uneven lines. Watch the line management vid again, and get all your lines within 1/4" of each other, dead-on is even better. Also makes a difference in the way the kite flies.

Breathe, smile and keep on flying.

10-4.....................and WATCH the VIDEO - "Line Management".........it's the ticket..........

[Captainbob]

I'm using John's method for winding my quad lines exclusively now, but with a couple of individual quirks!

1. - I color code all my lines! Colors are the same for top right and bottom right, top left, bottom left, kite and handle ends!! Yeah, I know it sounds tedious, but it keeps everything straight in my mind!! After a stroke, everything helps!

2. - I use 2 stakes for my handles, 1 for each! Helps keep them separated as I wind or unwind!

3. - I place a finger between sets of lines to keep them separated as I unwind! At the end, I have 2 sets, left and right, ready to attach to the kite!

Anyway, this works for me and I do it EVERY TIME, EXACTLY the same!!

After struggling with the 4 lines using JB's method, I finally have it down. I do the same thing, I use 2 stakes separated by about 5 feet, to unwind the lines, and never have a problem now. When I put the lines on the winder, I also make sure the leaders and knots are out of the way, and the first wind is a figure 8, and then straight from there. Works great.