mystainedskin Posted June 11, 2014 Report Share Posted June 11, 2014 I have not researched this ...so please forgive me if there is a thread dedicated to this subject. Been here a little while and don't recall ever seeing anything other than modded attachment methods via Jeff Burka somewhere. Has anyone attemted using a more foregiving bungee other than stock? It's storming and I am bored.... I would think that it would allow the sail to cup and grab air a little more...thus giving more frame flex. These kites and I don't exactly click. I can fly them fine...just doesn't feel right too me. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyPuppets LimitVoodoo Posted June 12, 2014 Report Share Posted June 12, 2014 I feel the same way, especially regarding the B2. I was thinking lighter weight sail cloth, or less panels in the design, as the seams add stiffness- it wouldn't be considered a B-Series then I guess. Smaller diameter rods. I think your bungie idea should be explored as well. Need more flex in the rods/cup in the sail, however I can get it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Dowler Posted June 12, 2014 Report Share Posted June 12, 2014 I think John is using P90 rods in his B2! Gives him a bit more flex than any of the stock rods! Not even Rev2 race rods seem to have the flex needed for him~ 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyzakite Posted June 12, 2014 Report Share Posted June 12, 2014 I just sold a light weight rev2 with tapered spars, I believe they was g-force sul's. But it was a classic curved logo 2. I think it was built for indoor comp but can't recall who owned it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mystainedskin Posted June 12, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 12, 2014 I agree with the lighter and tapered frames. But even on top of that... I have a bundle of bungee from inside some tent rods is what made me start thinking. I may whip the kite out and swap them out. It appears to be about a third less tension...just a guesstimate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyzakite Posted June 12, 2014 Report Share Posted June 12, 2014 This was the kite, the bungees might have been thinner or longer as they barely held the rods in, it may have been owned by an east coast flier and the handles were thinner than pencils. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mystainedskin Posted June 12, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 12, 2014 Looks as if the l.e. is a small diameter rod also. Here is the bungee I used. Did the outer wingtips and lower verticals. Give a fly tomorrow and see what happens with a 2 wrap frame. The tension and return rate is less than stock bungee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
makatakam Posted June 12, 2014 Report Share Posted June 12, 2014 Try this before you change all the bungees. Just loosen the leading edge bungees. This will allow the leading edge to curve more. Oops, you posted 2 seconds before I did. I guess it's too late. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparkieRob Posted June 12, 2014 Report Share Posted June 12, 2014 Preface: only theorising. I would think that the less tension in your LE the less cup you'll get. The bungees will absorb the wind pressure first before they stretch and transfer the tension energy to the sail. I would think that a sail that is already under tension would cup more as the tension energy will be transferred at less pressure. The other thing to get more cup would be to: 1) tighten the outer leg of the LE bridle to force more curve in. or 2) Lengthen the centre loop to allow the LE to flex out more with sail pressure. Your thoughts? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
makatakam Posted June 12, 2014 Report Share Posted June 12, 2014 If you tighten the leading bungees you are pulling the bottom ends of the upright tubes outward, putting greater tension in the trailing edge. A tighter T.E. allows less belly. Lengthen the center loop will allow more belly, but will also allow the kite to "cup" across its length, making slides slower and inverted hovers more difficult. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mystainedskin Posted June 12, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 12, 2014 More of a low wind mod. When there is little wind to create that tension. Bungee strech and hold a little..compared to a stretch and quick return. I already tweaked the bridle at outer edges and center for a little more cup. Also have a pigtail at the center for tuning....in or out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
makatakam Posted June 12, 2014 Report Share Posted June 12, 2014 Yes, that will allow quick adjustment in the field, and you get instant feedback in which direction to go, in or out. I have done that with most of my home-made quads because the bridle is never quite right if you're building from scratch. I also do that at all the bridle attachment points so I can adjust it in all directions. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyPuppets LimitVoodoo Posted June 12, 2014 Report Share Posted June 12, 2014 The B2 would be my kites of choice if it had the low end range on the std.. I will have to try the P90 frame. I bought The Diamond frame for my B2 and it's better than the race frame but only marginally so. I would love to have a Zen frame made B2 size, and an Indoor frame B2 sized as well to try out, but it's cost prohibitive, and a full P90 frame would be cheap. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mystainedskin Posted June 12, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 12, 2014 Test flight 1 done...30'x50# and 2 wrap frame. Felt and reacted different for sure.. good?? Bad? More flying is needed to determine that. Wind speed and direction super erratic. The initial pump and control felt good.. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparkieRob Posted June 12, 2014 Report Share Posted June 12, 2014 The B2 would be my kites of choice if it had the low end range on the std.. I will have to try the P90 frame. I bought The Diamond frame for my B2 and it's better than the race frame but only marginally so. I would love to have a Zen frame made B2 size, and an Indoor frame B2 sized as well to try out, but it's cost prohibitive, and a full P90 frame would be cheap. How low do you mean? I can, and do, fly mine in still air. Sure it's a little more work than my 1.5SUL but it's a whole lotta fun still. It remains quite fast if you let it run, or slow and graceful. Not anything like the Indoor. More like if the Indoor and the SUL had a baby. This is comparing my SUL flown off the bridle and not the verts. The B2 off the verts is twitchy but worth a try in still air too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyPuppets LimitVoodoo Posted June 12, 2014 Report Share Posted June 12, 2014 I can drag the B2 around from 0 on up, but I literally mean drag... my sail/LE just sheets the wind so fast. I will admit it can be a problem with my control, but I cannot hold a hover below 7 mph, until I get some curve in the LE. It can be fun to fly in this manner but with my chance at precision reduced in the low low wind, I'm looking for other options. I'm steering away from magic sticks too, I don't want a stiffer sail. The B2 has a higher weight to sail ratio compared to the 1.5 B already.. I flew a Rev 2 at KP and it was so much looser than my B2. It's my belief that the single skin had less seams which saves weight, and was therefore more flexible to boot. However, even that flew stiff with the 1/4" rod. I think any one of many changes could be made that would help me fly it better in 1-6 mph, but the rod tech is at the top of my list to start with. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mystainedskin Posted June 12, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 12, 2014 As with the other sails...I will try to fly them in nothing. Like you said,it is more work...but alot of the time that makes it more fun and challenging. I never priced out rods...but have heard many stories of P90s being used in these and other size sails due to cost.Also tapered rods.Running with what is on hand right now. I almost feel as if the kite is too light even with light and flexible frames. Therefore not creating the flex and reactions that I am looking for. May play with a little weighting. I like these kites in wind..but as skypuppet mentioned...that low range on the standard would be nice. Small and compact..great for some urban and night short line action. Slack line stuff is off the charts,even in low wind. This is what happens when you become a kite bum and have too much time on your hands 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyPuppets LimitVoodoo Posted June 12, 2014 Report Share Posted June 12, 2014 mystainedskin is right about slack line fun with the B2 being off the chart! And so easy to do in low wind, because the B2 won't hang on to less wind in the first place 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Dowler Posted June 12, 2014 Report Share Posted June 12, 2014 I get tired of all the floating you have to do in light wind, so.... out comes my Zen!! I want that powered up feel, something solid in my hands!! I didn't buy it just to decorate my bag, but to fly the thing!! Just can't understand the comments of - It feels different!! Really!!?? No duh! But if it can't fly, ain't much else will either! Whether it's on 50's or 120's, it's my light wind choice!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mystainedskin Posted June 12, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 12, 2014 I don't have a Zen, but do have a Rev 1..and will fly it in nothing with a 4 wrap. It's not fun...but alot of sail surface to work with and different flying style for me. But for the style of flying I am working towards...it's the wrong kite. I really feel the B2.. is that kite. I just have to get it tuned to my preferences. Flew the new bungees again today.Still had issues but felt much better in low to no enviroment. Although,the bungee used doesn't like concrete. Broke 1 outer tip bungee. This is old stuff..but may look for something a tad different. Solid core...as this was stranded. I think it is step towards a better feel..for me. Going to continue flying it..I have a bunch of the bungee and need more time to get a good answer on the changes.Also Burkas attachment conversion and a frame is in order... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul LaMasters Posted June 13, 2014 Report Share Posted June 13, 2014 I get tired of all the floating you have to do in light wind, so.... out comes my Zen!! I want that powered up feel, something solid in my hands!! I didn't buy it just to decorate my bag, but to fly the thing!! Just can't understand the comments of - It feels different!! Really!!?? No duh! But if it can't fly, ain't much else will either! Whether it's on 50's or 120's, it's my light wind choice!! I agree Wayne, my Zen rules the sky until it's indoor time then I fly ashworth's homebuilt until our hero gets around to releasing the new "Helium". Scott, You'd be wise to consult with Jeff Burka about his mods on a Rev2/B2 format. No bridle, super long throw handles and the ability to fly UPwind, one-handed while he looks you straight in the eye instead of watching the kite! His bungie attachment methods are different as you have noted above. Another flailer coach for you? I'm worried <LOL!> 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mystainedskin Posted June 16, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2014 Another good 30' session. 2 wrap, softer bungee,13"handles (cause the big ones are occupied right now) no bridle and some light wind. It was fun. I still felt a floaty or shedding sensation at times. But the sail loaded fairly well. Control is still not there like I want..but double axels no doubt...with just a subtle flic. I like the no bridle setup...so much less in the way. I think that part will stay gone for awhile. Thought I would be Fabrice Balden for a minute with some half axel to catch and throw...went fairly well. I was suprised! Even got a fade or 2 accidentally Along with some throw launches with a wrap on the kite This is going to be a fun journey! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Barresi Posted June 21, 2014 Report Share Posted June 21, 2014 Scott, you try P90s (or lighter) yet? Keen to hear your feedback on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reef Runner Posted June 22, 2014 Report Share Posted June 22, 2014 Man, all this is making my head hurt (messing around, tinkering, adjusting, changing, switching this and that.........sheesh!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Dowler Posted June 22, 2014 Report Share Posted June 22, 2014 But Nick - that's how some find their "feel"! Not for all, for sure! But some enjoy the comparing and adjusting! You and I fly them pretty much stock, right outta the bag, but that may not satisfy all!! To each their own! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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