Newbie with a 1.5SLE Vented (4 vents) with 3 wrap frame

[swifty_canada]

Hi there, I recently purchased a 1.5SLE fully vented with 4 vents and the dealer swapped out the large leading edge for 3 wrap frame (I also have a 4 wrap frame he gave me).

I was flying at Seaside in Oregon in under 10mph winds and had a real problem keeping the kite aloft. I have three questions.

(1) With the above setup, what is the minimum wind that I should be able to fly with the 3 wrap frame ?

(2) What wind speed should I start to use the 4 wrap frame ?

(3) Has anyone tried to develop a way to cover the vents with say strips of ripstop nylon held on with Velcro that has been stuck to the kite ? That way you could use a vented kite in lighter winds..

Apart from stressing the frame and the kite (with a light frame in a too high wind) is there any other reason to have a thicker frame ? I maybe missing something very basic, but then why not always fly with a thicker wrap frame, surely the weight isn't that much extra that would stop it from flying in a light wind ?

Thanks in advance for anyone's help..

[hyzakite]

I hope you get strong winds very soon, but you didn't mention if this is your first quadline kite. With 10mph, time under the belt makes a full vent very easy to fly, you may need to adjust the leader knot choices. All depends on how you fly, plenty of forward or plenty of reverse.

[3wrapframe]

-Yes there are covers that can be made for the vents, contact Andy @ Ocean Shores Kites. Its becoming fairly common to see these. The only issue I see is if you cover all the vents for light wind use you end up with a pretty heavy kite depending on what material is used.

-I only fly my full vent with a 4 wrap frame, i am lazy and just switch kites not frames but a 3 wrap would work too. To be honest 10 is a little light for a full vent kite, I would be on a mid vent or fighting a standard sail at that point but that just me.

-You can play with your leaders on the handle end but don't bring them back to far, you need even sail load on the kite sail to be flown correctly, there is a tension that you will have to find between to close in and to far out.

[swifty_canada]

Thanks guys.... yes this is my first 4 line and its fun, I can already do most of the basic steps albeit a little roughly.

Please can you tell me what increasing the top line length would do in a light wind ? Wouldn't that be the same result as pulling the bottom handle and slowing the kite down and dumping lift in a marginal wind ?

I will try and find the contact details for the kite shop that was mentioned...

[Nick Russell]

We just left the Seaside Oregon Thousand Trails campground today and came 35 miles up to Long Beach. Sorry we missed you, We've got a full kite bag so you could have tried several Rev configurations.

[makatakam]

Thanks guys.... yes this is my first 4 line and its fun, I can already do most of the basic steps albeit a little roughly.

Please can you tell me what increasing the top line length would do in a light wind ? Wouldn't that be the same result as pulling the bottom handle and slowing the kite down and dumping lift in a marginal wind ?

I will try and find the contact details for the kite shop that was mentioned...

Yes, but you would have to hold it constantly and consistently. When you move the top lines out (away from the handles) you are tilting the sail so it is more square to the wind. More wind in the sail equals more lift and makes it easier to fly in lighter wind. As with everything, it becomes a compromise between the extremes, you will eventually find a balance point. You will always be making adjustments as conditions change. Where you grip the handles also makes some difference. But for now, just concentrate on basic control.

As far as the different frames go, the more wraps the stiffer and heavier it becomes. Ideally, the frame should flex to give some billow to the sail. This is what actually creates lift. Use the 3-wrap in wind up to 20 mph or so-ish, the 4-wrap when you feel uncomfortable about the way the leading edge is bending. In very light wind you could use a 2-wrap frame, but at this point of the game it would make very little difference in your ability to keep the kite airborne. That will come with more time on the lines. Light wind flying is difficult even for experienced flyers, and the full vent Rev comes into its own at about 12 mph.

Try to time it so you are learning in wind from 12 to 20 mph. If you are busy fighting the wind it will take longer to build muscle memory, and can make it frustrating to learn. Find other flyers and/or festivals near you. This will shave many hours off the learning curve. Click on the member map and see who's near you.

More important than anything else: Have fun, smile and don't forget to breathe!

[Nick Russell]

Go see Ted at Northwest Winds on Broadway down by the turnaround. He's a good guy and a Rev flyer, will give you lots of advice

[RobB]

When my full-vent was my only Rev, I thought about putting some packaging tape over the vents to help the kite fly in lower winds. I'm sure it would've worked, but I never tried it because I usually fly on sand, which wouldn't have gone well with the tape. Luckily, I had plenty of dual line kites to fly when the wind was low...

[Wayne Dowler]

You have just described why most Rev pilots have multiple sails - matching equipment to conditions, In the SLE series, having a full sail and a full vent, will usually give you enough overlap in wind range. That will allow you to fly in most conditions. 3wrap is correct, several have tried covers. The disadvantage is weight added. You wanted a light wind sail, adding weight takes away from that. As an alternative, try asking around for a good used full sail.

The reason most don't use the thicker SLE rodset - no flex! Every one of the 1/4" rods has flex, right through to the 4 wrap. The SLE tubes, if they have any, don't have much. That flex = control! And that is the Rev's real advantage.

On when to use a 4 wrap? Up to you. Watch your leading edge - if it bends more than you are comfortable with - switch! Even if it is just the leading edge! Although a lot of pressure is actually on the vertical rods! Sometimes if you think the wind will build - use the heavier verts, then switch out the LE later. Tricks of the trade! Some of us (myself) will switch kites before frames, once you get used to it, it is pretty fast. But many use so called "hybrid frames", a mix of several different rod flexes, so try stuff, experiment. Nice thing about the Rev - there is no right or wrong - just what works for you!!

[Tmadz]

Watch the free tutorials on this website and spend a few hours practicing basic stuff like launching and hovering. Then you move into adjusting lines for wind conditions. If you have stock handles you're going to have to make some modifications to make it easier for you to adjust.

[John Barresi]

In addition to the free ones, you might also check out these premium tutorials as they're directly relevant to sail pressure and more or less brake.

http://kitelife.com/forum/files/file/684-rev-tutorial-tuning-theory-i/

http://kitelife.com/forum/files/file/702-rev-tutorial-sail-loading/

[Paul LaMasters]

Think of the flying device as two kites connected by a little piece of fabric in the middle, one in each hand. You can move them together or independently! There's a relationship between the two halves also. You get the maximum amount of wind pressure on the kite when it is square against that direction of air movement. Imagine holding a sheet of plywood in front of the wind tunnel. You can bend it against the wind direction (forward or backward from square) and bleed-off some of that pressure.

So on your kite set-up, you're going to have adjustable leaders affixed in-between the flying lines and the handles. A series of knots allows for easy movement of both the tops and bottom flying line positions. In the beginning, your top leaders are double the length of the bottoms, soon though that proportional difference will increase further! Currently I'm 3-1/2 times longer on the tops.

All this difference is like driving your car with both feet on the brake,... you're on a steep hill, it's icy and dark, there are no guard rails and the tires should have been replaced last year. That is how you are going to fly a quad. It can only go forward if you allow it to, only as far as you want, the natural position is a hover in position. You could hold that all day long in any orientation. You own it!

How you get to this level of control is entirely up to you. You can take years like me or you can crash course with others guiding your basics. Eventually developing your own feel and style. What feels right to you on the ends' of the lines today can change in the future.

You can change a rev component and test some premise easier than on most other kites, going back to "stock" is super easy. A group of people can explore a whole bunch of possibilities in quick succession. What happens if you jerk on one line violently in flight? What about a light weight (& Flexible!) frame in a heavily vented kite? Do you prefer that, as opposed to a stiffened frame kite with more sail area? When do you fly on clothes line (thick 140 or 170#) as opposed to using a kite with more venting? Naturally there are more elaborate changing you can make, customizing the kite to your liking. But without some firm basis of comparison you wouldn't know what feels "better".

Share with others, soon a group can develop and you'll have more opportunities to experiment with friends. Nothing is more rewarding!

Go out and meet other fliers,... I know that's bucks for travel instead of new kites. But the knowledge and exposure to the latest, greatest stuff is there also. You want a piece of that, it's an addiction that always needs to be fed.

Time on the lines can not be purchased, otherwise I'd be the best flier (thanks Barbara!)

[swifty_canada]

Thanks to everyone who has replied - your comments are most appreciated and noted. I did speak to Andy at Ocean Shore Kites and he doesn't make anything like that, so I am back to square one on that.

I think I am going to a local outdoor wear manufacturer and see if they can give me some ripstop nylon or other windproof material offcuts for me to cut to size - Then I may try using sticky backed Velcro to put some small dots on the sail to which I then get the vent covers to adhere to.

Why don't I buy another kite ? Basic finances cannot run to another $US300 especially hurting with the weak Canadian dollar too.

I have tried the packing tape and it works but comes off too easily and takes too long to reapply to make it practical long term.... So I will try moving the top cords and see if that helps. I am also watching the videos and trying to get the hang of it.

Last question.

What really is the difference in the Sail between the 1.5 SLE I bought and the B-Series ? - negating the frame what is the difference if any between what I have and a B-Series sail ? That's what I really don't understand. I had thought it was that the SLE was ripstop nylon and the B-series was Icarex but I was told differently today so I am totally confused now.

Thanks again in advance for any replies..

[RobB]

Some custom SLEs are made with Icarex, but the pattern the sail is sewn is different. The pattern allows the B series to billow into a more optimum shape, supposedly. My standard sail 1.5 is based on an SLE (icarex sail), and I have no complaints with it & it's capabilities. Of course, I have nothing to compare it to, as I've never flown a standard sail 1.5b. My midvent & full vent are B series, they fly the same as best as I can tell, but in higher winds.

[Wayne Dowler]

The SLE is the older model of the 2 and has gone through many variations over the years. They used a Mylar panel in them at one time. Yes they now are made of nylon, "B"s are icarex. Having gone through so many changes, it's possible that at one time they were made of icarex.

The frames are absolutely the same. Any 1.5 frame will interchange in any 1.5 sail, whether it is 2, 3, 4 wrap, black race, green race, diamond, etc!

Every Rev will do all the same stuff - hover, invert fly, speed control, etc, but there are slightly different feels to each model. Sort of like cars. You get in a Ford and it feels one way, but you get in a Lincoln and it feels a bit different - same maker though. Those who fly them a lot (me) can feel subtle differences between the models. Those just learning or fly lots of different kite types, might not.

JB might jump in here - he designed the "B" along with input from Bazzer, and explain some of the differences between models.

[dragonfish]

I've seen cling wrap taped over vents as a temporary solution. The guy used blue painters tape. The cling wrap is basically cut to cover the vent, and then tape along the entire edge of the cling wrap onto the sail. I don't know if this sticks any better than the packaging tape solution you already tried though.

[makatakam]

Thanks to everyone who has replied - your comments are most appreciated and noted. I did speak to Andy at Ocean Shore Kites and he doesn't make anything like that, so I am back to square one on that.

I think I am going to a local outdoor wear manufacturer and see if they can give me some ripstop nylon or other windproof material offcuts for me to cut to size - Then I may try using sticky backed Velcro to put some small dots on the sail to which I then get the vent covers to adhere to.

Why don't I buy another kite ? Basic finances cannot run to another $US300 especially hurting with the weak Canadian dollar too.

I have tried the packing tape and it works but comes off too easily and takes too long to reapply to make it practical long term.... So I will try moving the top cords and see if that helps. I am also watching the videos and trying to get the hang of it.

Last question.

What really is the difference in the Sail between the 1.5 SLE I bought and the B-Series ? - negating the frame what is the difference if any between what I have and a B-Series sail ? That's what I really don't understand. I had thought it was that the SLE was ripstop nylon and the B-series was Icarex but I was told differently today so I am totally confused now.

Thanks again in advance for any replies..

Icarex is being used nowadays for the simple reason that it is the best material for the job. Previously it was ripstop nylon; Icarex is ripstop polyester. Generally, whatever is the preferred material for sailboat sails is what will be used for kites, if the cost is reasonable. The difference between the SLE 1.5 and the B-series 1.5 and the B-Pro series is panel layout to improve performance characteristics and additional reinforcement once you get to the B-Pro's. Durability also improves as you go up the scale.

I played with vent covers a few years back when I couldn't afford getting a midvent. My solution was to sew a ripstop nylon (cheap scraps) cover for the vents and attach them to the sail using two 3/32" solid carbon or fiberglass rods (buy a $2.00 kiddy-kite) that I would flex and insert into small holes burned into the sail in the area where the sail and vent are doubled over and sewn together. One rod at the top of the vent, one at the bottom, nothing along the upright edges. The rods were inserted and glued into a pocket at top and bottom. The cover was placed over the vent on the front of the sail by inserting one end into a hole and flexing the rod to get the other end into the second hole. Repeat at the other end of the vent. The wind and sail tension hold it in position. You can knock out this modification in a couple of hours if you can sew, or you can just hot cut the material and only roll the top and bottom edges. However, you need to burn four holes per vent into the sail, which will begin to wear and possibly tear eventually. I don't have this kite anymore so I can't post a photo of the modification, but I will post a drawing of it as soon as possible.

[makatakam]

Kind of like this:

Get the idea?

[swifty_canada]

Thanks for the idea. I have now bought a second hand unvented sail and this may be the way I go rather than burning holes in the kite, or maybe use velcro dots to attach the vent covers ..

Cheers