Huh... how'd that happen?

[Hasek]

I was flying today and after about 15 minutes of flight the lower right line disconnected from the bridle. When I was attaching the lines like always, I gave a decent tug on the larks head. The winds were 8+ so in the previous 15 minutes of flying, the knot should have tightened up some more. I'm pretty baffled as I've never had this happen or heard of it happening.

 

The pic is of the B2 I adopted from Rob and the B I've had for a while. Sorry Rob, I didn't get a chance to fly it. The skies were dark and ominous to the south. It was moving away from me. By the time I got the B2 set up and the Magic Sticks figured out, the wind shifted and the storm was more of a concern so  I packed up.

[SparkieRob]

I did this, the B2 and B1.5 stack too. I had to tune the "inner legs" of the train as its not a linear expansion between them. Looks awesome!

Sorry about no instructions with the sticks, glad you got them sorted.

With regards to the line coming off, could've been attached in front of the bridle knot. Will hold for a while.

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[SHBKF]

I had the same thing happen with a dualie recently.  Only thing I could come up with was that perhaps I had the larkshead loop straddling the knot instead of all on one side or maybe as Rob suggests.  I flew for just a few moments, lost the right line & went into a death spiral.  I landed quickly by running toward the out of control Zephyr.  Naturally it was one of the few times I had an audience....   I carefully checked the kite over & resumed flying with no further surprises.   You can put a little beeswax on your knots to stiffen them up a bit.  I do this routinely for the hyper little Micron as it likes to move itself to the tighter turn setting of the bridle adjustments.  Not really what you want on that kite IMHO.  You can also double up the larkshead to make a prusik knot which grips the line even more tightly.  SHBKF

[RaginCajun]

I've done that before, I believe it's like mentioned above, larkshead was on the other side of the knot. I've also done it on a slk, a big one, flying over water. Didn't realize until I walked it down there was no larkshead, only a loop snagged on the knotted leader of the kite.. Hahaha Definitely got lucky on that one!

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[hyzakite]

I've jumped a knot a few times but only on SUL's with thread sized bridles, you can barely see a single knot, but it's probably happened with bigger than normal sized sleeving added to mixture. It all makes for a better look during your next set up.

[Hasek]

Yeah, I kinda figured it was user error, I didn't want to admit it. The feeling of "Oh guano, that's going to take a minute to get the lines untangled" wasn't all that exciting either, lol.

 

Those aren't stacked Rob. It was just the camera shot I liked best. No worries about the Magic Stick instructions, after the initial " what is all this?", it only took a minute or so to get it figured out and set up. 

 

SKBHF, thanks for the two tips. No offense, I won't be using them; I'll just double check my attachments from here on out. Something I suppose should have been being done since day one.

 

No harm no foul huh Jason, lol. Those wooooooo, I was fortunate moments are good!

 

Hyzakite, I don't understand. The larger sleeving makes for a better looking kite?

[dragonfish]

Hahaha "Oh guano", I like your creative censoring.  

I had a similar experience once as well.  All of a sudden, one of the brake lines let go.  I thought I broke a line.  When I walked down the line, I saw that nothing was broken.  Was also a little puzzled what happened, but probably user error as well.  

[SHBKF]

39 minutes ago, hyzakite said:

I've jumped a knot a few times but only on SUL's with thread sized bridles, you can barely see a single knot, but it's probably happened with bigger than normal sized sleeving added to mixture. It all makes for a better look during your next set up.

I have had the same issue with the sleeving that was too large for the light lines.  It would have some looseness in it that would cause the larkshead to not cinch down snuggly.  I think hyzakite means to look over the kite more closely during set up which is something I need to remind myself of occasionally.  I have also retied the knots on some superlight bridles to make the stopper knot larger.  The beeswax is a good tip actually but the prusik knot thought is a bit extreme.  I use the normal larkshead exclusively.  SHBKF

[hyzakite]

I meant like SHBKF explained. Your minor mishap this time will better prepare you next time as you set up.

The oversized sleeving on my lineset caused my larkhead to slip over the knot and fail.

I guess "a better look" was a bad choice of words. A closer look? Being more aware? Of what both hands are doing while you are attaching lines to the kite and watching the larkshead approach the knot and tightening around the line during it's approach to the knot until it's locked against the knot.

"A better look" was so much easier to type on my keyboard. But it conveyed a different message to different people I guess.

[oapbillf]

15 hours ago, Hasek said:

I was flying today and after about 15 minutes of flight the lower right line disconnected from the bridle. When I was attaching the lines like always, I gave a decent tug on the larks head.

Been there ! Done that ! Got told off for not knowing how to tie a Larkshead, as a joke naturally.

Saw it happen again yesterday at the Basingstoke Kite Festival, was not me this time but an experienced Rev flier!

Bill

 

[makatakam]

10 hours ago, Hasek said:

Hyzakite, I don't understand. The larger sleeving makes for a better looking kite?

I think he meant that it's like tying a knot in thread and then trying to get a larkshead tied in rope to grab and hold on it. The tiny knot on the thread will slip through the crevice in the rope. Excessively thick sleeving is like using rope. The best grip, in general, is achieved if the sleeve is thinner than the bridle. If the larkshead tends to "slip" over the knot on the bridle, increase the size of the knot in the bridle. This can be done by tying a bead into it, or using a figure-eight knot that is twice as bulky.

[Wayne Dowler]

Have mostly cured my problems on an SUL bridle by making the knots bigger. Was going to try putting a bead or something else on the ends, but gave up when it was darn near impossible to untie the knots, so i just doubled them up. You shouldn't have any problems if you use lines from the Kite Shoppe, Theresa uses lighter sleeves - 90# bridle line, decored. But not very many other places use that, as it is tough to untie her knots to equalize the lines. Most use 150# sleeves, easy to thread, but a bit on the bulky side. Never can remember any issues with a regular bridle and any sized sleeving.

[John Barresi]

Familiar experience.

Adding for our newest readers... I have also found that sometimes I either didn't cinch the larks head down against the knot very well, or even missed one of the two larks loops and basically "hung" the line loop on the knot - in both cases, I've had it still sometimes stay on through quite a bit of flying - feels kind of like a broken line when it happens.

The recurring goal here is to develop a basic convention for set up, a casual checklist that you flow through - many, many flight issues can be traced back to some little equipment detail.

[Exult]

On 6/6/2016 at 5:01 AM, SHBKF said:

I have had the same issue with the sleeving that was too large for the light lines.  It would have some looseness in it that would cause the larkshead to not cinch down snuggly.

...

On 6/6/2016 at 1:59 PM, hyzakite said:

The oversized sleeving on my lineset caused my larkhead to slip over the knot and fail.

Is the problem that the sleeving had too large diameter from the start or became thicker during use?

My take on this is to verify that the sleeving has not slided and grown thicker. Check if this has happened by seeing if it is possible to make it thinner. A temporary fix if you don't want to adjust the lines while on the field is to attempt to migrate some of the sleeving from the place for the larks head, i.e. from the middle of the sleeve.

The thickness of the sleeving might change with time if the inner end of the sleeve slides towards the end of the line. This happened to the orange sleeve on the handle side - it was time to adjust the sleeve position/relative line lengths and stretch the sleeving.

[makatakam]

One more good reason not to use sleeving. 

[SHBKF]

I have had enough time, line sets & varieties to have some observations on line sleeves.  Generally I prefer sleeves for a couple reasons.  They give added strength to light lines that are weakened by knotting.  I have broken lines where an accidental knot has occurred part way out the length at the unwanted knot.  This occurred with 50# line.  Knots are very hard to untie in the small diameter line & I just left the extra knot out there.  Light lines like 50# are easily untied to equalize if they have proper size sleeves.  Too large a sleeve can allow scrunching up & quite annoying problems.  I also like to fly light lines using only the sleeves & no straps.  It is a very hooked up feel.  I tend to make the sleeved portion of a line set quite long which allows for in field adjustments to length by adding extra knots to shorten the offending line a small amount.  100# lines are much more easily looped & the knots can be untied using a common pin & an eye loupe to see where to begin prying it open.   When you go to 150# the lines start getting to where you could forgo the sleeves all together.  But I still like them.  If I were going to leave the sleeves off it would be on the kite end of the lines.  I have a few sets like that & they also have a small loop on the very end which allows un-larksheading (difficult kite terminology) That works quite well but I still like sleeves.  Power kite strength lines are a whole nother world.  Riffclown has powerful experience in that area.  SHBKF

[makatakam]

I forgot to mention that I do like sleeving at the handle end. At the kite end I like as little weight as possible. I realize that sleeves don't weigh much, but when you add up all the extra weight I have trimmed in other places, it is close to 2 extra ounces that the kite doesn't have to lift and that makes my kite faster than yours. Nyah, nyah, nyah, nyah, nyah. 

[Paul LaMasters]

no sleeving for me either, not on either end.  

BEFORE you make a loop(s), you create the stopper knot into that single stand.

Longer leaders on the handles, so I can reach out farther and not touch that bare spectra

If the spectra broke on a knot then you are using the wrong one!  The correct knot for spectra is a doubled figure of eight.  The center of the knot is four thicknesses and it tights in two directions so it can't slip.

Sleeving is just another tangle waiting to happen, particularly at the handle end during severe flailing!  Sleeving on the kite end is a mess when setting up, it won't separate easily from the handle end when affixed to a stake.  W/o sleeving it just zips apart like a sandwich baggie. All tangles or nesting wind-up right in front of you at the stake.

[makatakam]

5 hours ago, Paul LaMasters said:

no sleeving for me either, not on either end.  

BEFORE you make a loop(s), you create the stopper knot into that single stand.

Longer leaders on the handles, so I can reach out farther and not touch that bare spectra

If the spectra broke on a knot then you are using the wrong one!  The correct knot for spectra is a doubled figure of eight.  The center of the knot is four thicknesses and it tights in two directions so it can't slip.

Sleeving is just another tangle waiting to happen, particularly at the handle end during severe flailing!  Sleeving on the kite end is a mess when setting up, it won't separate easily from the handle end when affixed to a stake.  W/o sleeving it just zips apart like a sandwich baggie. All tangles or nesting wind-up right in front of you at the stake.

Yup, what he said! I use sleeving at the handle end as something to grab instead of bare spectra. I suppose I could just make the leaders longer so the lines are reversible to distribute wear equally. Nuts, I don't really want to change all my setups again!

Oh, and make the loops about eight inches long. That makes them long enough to equalize lines by tying knots onto them.

[SHBKF]

I failed to mention that the knot in the line that broke was a half knot of an accidental nature.  I found it winding up after a brutal winter session where anything could have happened.  I have used figure eight knots many times in climbing situations.  If you are betting your life on a knot it better be a good one.  Most all my preferences for line set construction came from observations of factory line sets & personal experience/failures before I started reading the forums. Then there was a time, for several months, when I was afraid to even post because there were so many knowledgeable people with way more experience than me.  Since then it has been very helpful to fine tune things a bit using all that freely offered help.  I continue to evolve my thoughts but I am still a flailer at heart.   SHBKF