tuning Pigtails (tuning your quad with knotted leaders)

[Wayne Dowler]

OOPS - by 15", I meant my handle length, not leaders! I use John and TK's leaders - love 'em! And I was referring to your 13" handles too!

Sorry for the confusion!!

[Mike Klaiber]

thank you both! I did not see the 11" leaders before. Do you sell handles John?

[John Barresi]

Nope, I do my best to stay out of retail or manufacturing - I'm a flier first, good leaders (specs and material) are something that I was *perpetually* tying for folks so it only made sense for us to do it right.

Sent from my iPhone using KiteLife mobile app

[Mike Klaiber]

Received the leaders I ordered and after a couple hours tuning and flying in variable winds I was able to find neutral and essentially change from a braking to a leading edge flyer. Took me a while but newbie enough that time spent in the air and the feel of what all you described in videos made sense and seems to be easier with leading edge. Definitely easier to stall in lots of window locations and developed lateral leading edge up flight (on purpose anyway) which looks so cool. Thanks to TK also for her beautiful leaders ! So glad I got them. In a few hours I climbed in skill and smile more - still make lots of shameful walks to unwind and reset but now walking back I am thinking of how to correct versus just how to cuss at a higher level. Love to learn new stuff and this is so frustrating and fun at the same time! Thanks again for the help! Loving it

Sent from my iPhone using KiteLife mobile app

[John Barresi]

Thanks to you! Keep enjoying the process, in any case.

Sent from my iPhone using KiteLife mobile app

[makatakam]

On 4/2/2016 at 9:03 PM, John Barresi said:

Nope, I do my best to stay out of retail or manufacturing - I'm a flier first, good leaders (specs and material) are something that I was *perpetually* tying for folks so it only made sense for us to do it right.

Sent from my iPhone using KiteLife mobile app

I've begun to wonder . . . . . . everyone knows the advantages of extended top leaders, including the good folks at Revolution kites. Why don't they just sell the kites with this type of leader? Another $5/kite is not going to make a difference to a buyer.

 

[hyzakite]

I'm one of those stubborn guys that believe flying a masterpiece rev upside down just doesn't look right! I also enjoy flying inches from the ground at times and small windows, going back to the old style flying brings back memories, you know!

I'm ok at flying with flying long top leaders, I'm also ok with flying nubs as top leaders! Some quad kites don't look correct leading edge down, some can't fly right with leading edge up. I fly my revs the way I feel they was meant to be flown.

[makatakam]

15 hours ago, hyzakite said:

I'm one of those stubborn guys that believe flying a masterpiece rev upside down just doesn't look right! I also enjoy flying inches from the ground at times and small windows, going back to the old style flying brings back memories, you know!

I'm ok at flying with flying long top leaders, I'm also ok with flying nubs as top leaders! Some quad kites don't look correct leading edge down, some can't fly right with leading edge up. I fly my revs the way I feel they was meant to be flown.

And that is what makes it fun, in different ways for everyone.

[Wayne Dowler]

17 hours ago, makatakam said:

I've begun to wonder . . . . . . everyone knows the advantages of extended top leaders, including the good folks at Revolution kites. Why don't they just sell the kites with this type of leader? Another $5/kite is not going to make a difference to a buyer.

 

Well now - deep subject!!

My take - Look at it from Rev's point of view as a seller - if you can't launch it - you can't sell it! Just about everything they did in leaders is geared to make it easy to launch! Think about it, what do the longer leaders do? Add control to an already flying kite! Most of us, that have gone the longer leader route, have learned to incorporate or adapted to the needed moves that get the kite airborne. But it does take a bit more effort. Technique helps. learning to preload the sail in preparation of launch, taking a step back in your launch sequence, all take some learning. Especially if you are used to the kite just leaping into the sky!! 

Even the leaders on the "B" series are a compromise!! Not as long as is really needed, but at least a start in the right direction for those looking for the thing Revs best can deliver - control!

[John Barresi]

Exactly as Wayne just stated, confirmed.

Sent from my iPhone using KiteLife mobile app

[makatakam]

Ok, John -- I get the idea! Jeez, you only gotta say it once.

But seriously, they have this stuff called paper, and this stuff called ink with which one can make magic symbols on the paper. They could call it instructions, but it would take much of the mysticism out of flying the Rev. Like repeated crashes at full speed. Like hideously twisted lines (which is what a beginner sees if the kite spins twice). Like not being able to react because the kite moves too fast. Really, it would make learning much less memorable.

OMG, what a nightmare that would be!!!

John, you and I flew together at Busse Woods in Illinois. You know how much brake I use (lots). When I give my handles to a beginner I only bring the tops back two knots. Then I tell them how to get it airborne and keep it there. The same thing can be done in print with this as the first line:

If you don't READ THIS the kite won't fly.

[John Barresi]

Sorry, quirky interface.

End of the day, I tend to be pretty simple about tuning... Let the leaders ALL THE WAY out, then pull 'em back one knot at a time until YOU'RE happy with the experience.

Every month or two, repeat the process and a flier's "happy knot" will typically get further and further out, especially when they learn the inverted hover.

Sent from my iPhone using KiteLife mobile app

[John Barresi]

Sorry, quirky interface.

End of the day, I tend to be pretty simple about tuning... Let the leaders ALL THE WAY out, then pull 'em back one knot at a time until YOU'RE happy with the experience.

Every month or two, repeat the process and a flier's "happy knot" will typically get further and further out, especially when they learn the inverted hover.

Sent from my iPhone using KiteLife mobile app

[hyzakite]

In reading some of this topic it does sound confusing at times. Like bringing the knots in if it doesn't launch, but no mention of the kites position on the ground = leading edge up or leading edge down. What's a hover? is a hover 6" off the ground and not moving in any direction? What's inverted? and when does the now normal inverted become uninverted? Is it possible to hover 6" off the ground inverted relatively still for any amount of time then turning the kite uninverted and doing the same without any leader adjustments?

[makatakam]

5 hours ago, hyzakite said:

In reading some of this topic it does sound confusing at times. Like bringing the knots in if it doesn't launch, but no mention of the kites position on the ground = leading edge up or leading edge down. What's a hover? is a hover 6" off the ground and not moving in any direction? What's inverted? and when does the now normal inverted become uninverted? Is it possible to hover 6" off the ground inverted relatively still for any amount of time then turning the kite uninverted and doing the same without any leader adjustments?

1.  Bringing the knots/lines in towards the handle if the kite won't launch is when the kite is in the upright position: VV, leading edge up.

2.  A hover is holding the kite motionless, in any position, anywhere in the wind window -- so yes, 6" off the ground and not moving is a hover.

3.  Inverted is the opposite of upright -- see item #1. Left hover is leading edge to the left, Right hover is leading edge to the right.

4.  Yes, you can hover 6" off the ground inverted, completely motionless, and then turn it over (to upright) and hover in the same spot, motionless, without making adjustments, if the leader setting being used is such that the kite is pitched forward enough to provide the necessary amount of lift to hold the hover, and/or the wind is sufficient, and/or if you provide the necessary lift by moving backwards. (This, item#4, is difficult for beginning pilots to understand and accomplish, as it requires enough time-on-the-lines/experience, developing a "feel" for the kite and the wind, and constant minute adjustments in control inputs.)

I hope this helps. If you have any other questions, fire away, no matter how "dumb" you might feel about asking. We have all started at the same place, and have experienced the same things you are at this point in you kite flying "career". I am always ready to help reduce the amount of grief and frustration you may feel at times, because I've been there, and after seven years of flying quad-lines still get miffed when something new doesn't happen for me as easily as I thought it would. 

Hang tough, smile, and don't forget to breathe.

 

[DeafThunder]

makatakam, what you just said as in definition language is great ... ... I like this alot ... never knew how to say it right

Quote

Left hover is leading edge to the left ... Right hover is leading edge to the right.

... and please feel free to add more tricks & definitions for those words there ... http://kitelife.com/forum/topic/6743-a-list-of-individual-trick-name-name-of-movementpath/

 

[hyzakite]

Ok, so what makes upright on a quad kite that flies in any direction? Is it because the words on the kite is upright? Why is vv upright? Why can't ^^ be upright? I setup to fly with leading edge down, I launch with leading down, I park my revs leading edge down, so could upright where ever that may be, be predominantly leading edge down/or most weight of the kite outward from the center? That's the messed up part of not able to launch by bringing the lines in knot at a time when you might be making things worse. Just like trying to launch an older rev1 that came with unequalized lines but trying to launch and fly it with equalized lines. If it is the word/s on the kite at determine direction of what is upright what about the rev nym and other revs that are labeled on the side of the kite sideways. And I bet you wonder why I'm hyzakite.

[makatakam]

40 minutes ago, hyzakite said:

Ok, so what makes upright on a quad kite that flies in any direction? Is it because the words on the kite is upright? Why is vv upright? Why can't ^^ be upright? I setup to fly with leading edge down, I launch with leading down, I park my revs leading edge down, so could upright where ever that may be, be predominantly leading edge down/or most weight of the kite outward from the center? That's the messed up part of not able to launch by bringing the lines in knot at a time when you might be making things worse. Just like trying to launch an older rev1 that came with unequalized lines but trying to launch and fly it with equalized lines. If it is the word/s on the kite at determine direction of what is upright what about the rev nym and other revs that are labeled on the side of the kite sideways. And I bet you wonder why I'm hyzakite.

And if you fly it all day the way you parked and launched it, then you are the "reverse flight" guru of all time. A few times a year I like to do a backwards day. Forward flight is not allowed for at least an hour. I usually never make it past the 20-minute mark, but I try. Up, down, sideways, forward, reverse -- I don't look at them as directions; merely references that determine which way I went.

 

[Wayne Dowler]

Why is the sun bright and moon made of green cheese??

All the directions (inverted, upright, left, right) are taken from the relationship with the LE! That is the "so called" point of reference for all direction, (up, down, etc).

(Wonder why it's called "the leading edge"?) 

[SHBKF]

On 5/15/2016 at 6:20 PM, hyzakite said:

I'm one of those stubborn guys that believe flying a masterpiece rev upside down just doesn't look right! I also enjoy flying inches from the ground at times and small windows, going back to the old style flying brings back memories, you know!

I'm ok at flying with flying long top leaders, I'm also ok with flying nubs as top leaders! Some quad kites don't look correct leading edge down, some can't fly right with leading edge up. I fly my revs the way I feel they was meant to be flown.

Wanted to post a thought after reading the above comment but hesitated as this topic seemed to be headed even further.  Now it seems to be getting quite cerebral & I am enjoying the thoughtful discussion immensely.  So my mind drifts to other thoughts about my own style of flight.  As time has gone on flying Revolution kites I pause to reflect on what might shape my relationship with this Sportwing in the sky.   So I like to listen to old rock & roll as I cruise around.  It hits me.  Blue Oyster Cult sings a song that's not about kites but mentions the force that fascinates me with quads, "Dominance and Submission" .  I am endlessly entertained by making the kite do things that are contrary to normal forward flight.  I especially love flying backwards.  I dominate the kite & it submits!  Wow! that's it!  What's this have to do with this topic?

Know Eye Deer, SHBKF

"Yeah the radio was on, can't you dig the locomotion"

"Kingdoms of the radio 45 R-P-M, too much Revolution, then"

"In Times Square now, people do the polka, Dominance, submission, radios appear"

 

[hyzakite]

On ‎5‎/‎15‎/‎2016 at 6:20 PM, hyzakite said:

I'm one of those stubborn guys that believe flying a masterpiece rev upside down just doesn't look right! I also enjoy flying inches from the ground at times and small windows, going back to the old style flying brings back memories, you know!

I'm ok at flying with flying long top leaders, I'm also ok with flying nubs as top leaders! Some quad kites don't look correct leading edge down, some can't fly right with leading edge up. I fly my revs the way I feel they was meant to be flown.

I guess what I tried to say was "some" masterpiece revs don't look correct in the sky flown upside down. So I would give them a lot of forward. And lock them in in forward. 99.9% of the time I use regular revs with long top leaders and play in every part of the window.

[Reef Runner]

2 hours ago, SHBKF said:

Wanted to post a thought after reading the above comment but hesitated as this topic seemed to be headed even further.  Now it seems to be getting quite cerebral & I am enjoying the thoughtful discussion immensely.  So my mind drifts to other thoughts about my own style of flight.  As time has gone on flying Revolution kites I pause to reflect on what might shape my relationship with this Sportwing in the sky.   So I like to listen to old rock & roll as I cruise around.  It hits me.  Blue Oyster Cult sings a song that's not about kites but mentions the force that fascinates me with quads, "Dominance and Submission" .  I am endlessly entertained by making the kite do things that are contrary to normal forward flight.  I especially love flying backwards.  I dominate the kite & it submits!  Wow! that's it!  What's this have to do with this topic?

Know Eye Deer, SHBKF

"Yeah the radio was on, can't you dig the locomotion"

"Kingdoms of the radio 45 R-P-M, too much Revolution, then"

"In Times Square now, people do the polka, Dominance, submission, radios appear"

 

Deep Ralph............deep !

[vin]

Sorry to revive this thread guys. But I just bought JB's leaders made by Tk. Awesome stuff. I am follwing the procedures of finding the happy knot from the furthest out. But what about the bottom line? Which knot do I put to begin with? Also at what kinda winds conditions should I be tuning to cos we don't really get good winds in Singapore sad to say. 

Best regards, 

Vin

[Wayne Dowler]

Outside last knot. We use the lower knots to equalize lines.

[vin]

Thank You Wayne. 

May I know Other than launching after finding the happy knot, what other maneuvers should I try to see if I am on the right track to ensure I'm not to bias in forward or reverse drive?