The Reflex

[photomom]

Got a look at the new Reflex Rev.  Pretty sail pattern.  Who's going to jump in and get one?

[SKS65]

14 hours ago, SKS65 said:

 

 Curious. The video doesnt really give me an idea yet.

Just like to play in the wind

[mywindstuff]

Just left the KTAI show in las Vegas. Lolly and David are awesome, and that New Reflex just as awesome. Nope I won't share my pictures of it yet! 

[RobB]

I've seen the pictures of it... doesn't look like it has reinforcements at the fold points. The one biggest improvement Rev could make... All of the new selling points sound nice, but it's not worth much if the kite doesn't last !

 

[makatakam]

I'm more interested in the sail loading mechanics than the panel layout, although I do like it.

[Wayne Dowler]

Pix are on FB, so no reason to hide them! I'm more interested in performance over looks or gimmicks. Rob's right - no fold strips to make the weakest link any stronger. 

 

And look at it and tell me how they plan  to vent it!

[makatakam]

I believe it is intended as a low-wind kite, designed strictly for that purpose. No intent to vent it, just as unnecessary as venting an indoor.

[DeafThunder]

Found it

 

http://www.gwtwforum.com/index.php?topic=13194.0

[Wayne Dowler]

I'll need to put my hands on one before I'm overly attracted. It could be a Zen replacement being bigger than a 1.5 and smaller than a 1. But that also makes a whole new bunch of rod sets to market. That size will mean nothing you have will interchange! And I'm not really sold on the "spring" on the verts. We have enough wear on our sails, let alone having a steel "spring" rubbing up against it! and how is it "captured"? How will it be kept from moving! 90* twist and it's just weight on the rods.

Uncharted waters!

[hyzakite]

I haven't seen anything about size, but mixing the leading edge tubes 2 1.5 outer tubes with a rev1 center, or a 1.5 center and 2 rev1 outer tubes would both make the size bigger than a 1.5 and smaller than a rev1 without changing to new tube sizes.

I didn't see/hear much of this kite until now, sounds interesting, I thought the black edges of the kite was making it more responsive by stiffening up the material a little until Wayne mentioned springs, which means moving parts to me, I already know how sand and end caps don't mix too good, I wonder how sand and moving parts mix?

Sounds like something PLM should put through its paces! 

[Wayne Dowler]

Springs might be wrong - try flexible cables, attached to the vert, and able to compress and expand as pressure develops. Should reshape the sail to billow in as pressure decreases. 

Yes, a mixed set could increase sail size, but I'm guessing they have a whole set of new rods to sell those that get one!

 

Really all a guess until I get a close up view!

[Paul LaMasters]

I can't comment on the new Reflex without feeling one on the ends of the string.  

My acquisition concerns though are the same as a decade ago,.. an Icarex polycarbonate sail is required (no nylon), add'l reinforcing patches added into the leading edge sleeve at the folds and center point, potentially a more responsive bridle, if not right away during testing, then eventually.

Someone in my local group of quad-heads will be a 1st adopter and share w/the rest of us

-plm

[DeafThunder]

I just noticed something ... maybe "the reflex" ?

http://www.socaldailyphoto.com/kite-party-returned-to-huntington-beach/

bottom right corner of "tic tac toe" gallery

[RobB]

On 1/31/2016 at 9:58 PM, DeafThunder said:

I just noticed something ... maybe "the reflex" ?

http://www.socaldailyphoto.com/kite-party-returned-to-huntington-beach/

bottom right corner of "tic tac toe" gallery

Thought that kinda looked like an all Black SLE...

[DeafThunder]

11 hours ago, RobB said:

Thought that kinda looked like an all Black SLE...

After I looked it up ... you are correct ... false alarm ... thank you.

 

(laughing)

Please disperse ...

... Nothing to see here !!!

 

 

 

[Wayne Dowler]

The Kite Connection exclusive color I believe, in a 1.5 SLE. Our team leader got one of his "ghost" SULs last year at KP - believe it was one of the last ones he had.

[Paul LaMasters]

I spent some outdoor time spanking on the new Reflex this past weekend, some of us will love it's easy flight dynamics in low wind, some of us will wonder why was it created, who's the intended market really? 

Comments ranged from "must have one", (effortless flight by folks with little low wind experience) to "dilutes pilot commands at the handles" (they're quickly going to become flexible at the top attachment point of the leader/handle assembly.  does that functionality smooth out the flight controls or dilute pilot commands?  That is a personal conclusion as opinions varied.  We did try handles of various lengths as a comparison (longer vs recommended)

It is different, some things are way cool, some seemed like a 6th grade kid's science project submission, not even worthy of a first prototype distinction name tag.  The concept of a shaped sail is totally sound and the things the kite can do are pretty cool, but flight dynamics are not like other Revs much at all.  It is "UN-catchable", it wants to fly so bad you can spill the air pressure completely but not knock it out of the sky.  You can't throw an oak leaf, can ya"?,... Well you can't really throw a shaped sail very easily either!  

You can walk forward with the kite inverted behind you (The up and over movement from indoor flying) and it will not come down in a dead calm on long lines.  You can dead-launch the kite!  There's a pronounced curvature built into the leading edge, so it cups air effortlessly.

The end-cap/tubes are a most excellent design improvement area, the new spars are a perfect fit for a really clean look and I'm guessing fantastic durability on hard parking lots or indoor surfaces where the kite is destined to be used.  You will be amazed how well these components are engineered.  No more cut bridle loops where the caps rubbed 'em raw, never again a cracked end-cap from concrete seawalls.

The shaped sail component currently offered is not a long term solution.  (SORRY) A flexible wire that gets deformed simply being placed into the kite sleeve and transported?  That tensioning device needs to be removable, replaceable on the field.  A steel spring made to be removable. Possible options: It almost cries out for a flexible rod of micro-carbon held in two positions with a the micro rod being passed thru a sleeve into the shaping patch of the sail (it's already very well reinforced)  All you are adding is another attachment insertion point for the micro-rod to butt against along the down-spar on the other end.  You'd put the shaping rod in thru the sail and then reach around to tuck the ends into the holders on the frame.  Simple, cheap, removable, durable.

Another alternative to consider? The down tube holding the Reflex mechanism could instead be sheathed in a twin tapered ends of foam of varying densities to shape the sail 3 dimensionally, then nothing can break and replacement parts will be easy to keep on hand.  Team Crazy Drivers used ultra shortie short magic sticks to shape the sail to a couple inches worth of distortion.

The sail material seemed to be incarex to my untrained eye and the assembly construction was top notch.  I'd like to see a double line of straight stitching along the trailing edge instead of the triple zig-zag (so the kite backs-up better knifing thru the wind).  Naturally the folds on the leading edge sleeve need to be reinforced, at least on mine.

You will have great fun on this kite, but personally it needs some beefing up for a heavy handed flailer such as myself.  My zen flew in the same conditions as the Reflex, but I've worn two of those wings out already.  Fletch has had the Reflex for a few sessions now and he can fly the stitching out of that thing.  

You need to experience it for yourself and see what you think.  I'm not the opinion you should trust, I don't fly any revolution kites as a stock product and haven't since about 1999.  I know this kite will be a special project for the WoW Kite Club someday.  Keep what you like and change what you don't, then see where it takes us.

[SparkieRob]

I spent some outdoor time spanking on the new Reflex this past weekend, some of us will love it's easy flight dynamics in low wind, some of us will wonder why was it created, who's the intended market really? 

Comments ranged from "must have one", (effortless flight by folks with little low wind experience) to "dilutes pilot commands at the handles" (they're quickly going to become flexible at the top attachment point of the leader/handle assembly.  does that functionality smooth out the flight controls or dilute pilot commands?  That is a personal conclusion as opinions varied.  We did try handles of various lengths as a comparison (longer vs recommended)

It is different, some things are way cool, some seemed like a 6th grade kid's science project submission, not even worthy of a first prototype distinction name tag.  The concept of a shaped sail is totally sound and the things the kite can do are pretty cool, but flight dynamics are not like other Revs much at all.  It is "UN-catchable", it wants to fly so bad you can spill the air pressure completely but not knock it out of the sky.  You can't throw an oak leaf, can ya"?,... Well you can't really throw a shaped sail very easily either!  

You can walk forward with the kite inverted behind you (The up and over movement from indoor flying) and it will not come down in a dead calm on long lines.  You can dead-launch the kite!  There's a pronounced curvature built into the leading edge, so it cups air effortlessly.

The end-cap/tubes are a most excellent design improvement area, the new spars are a perfect fit for a really clean look and I'm guessing fantastic durability on hard parking lots or indoor surfaces where the kite is destined to be used.  You will be amazed how well these components are engineered.  No more cut bridle loops where the caps rubbed 'em raw, never again a cracked end-cap from concrete seawalls.

The shaped sail component currently offered is not a long term solution.  (SORRY) A flexible wire that gets deformed simply being placed into the kite sleeve and transported?  That tensioning device needs to be removable, replaceable on the field.  A steel spring made to be removable. Possible options: It almost cries out for a flexible rod of micro-carbon held in two positions with a the micro rod being passed thru a sleeve into the shaping patch of the sail (it's already very well reinforced)  All you are adding is another attachment insertion point for the micro-rod to butt against along the down-spar on the other end.  You'd put the shaping rod in thru the sail and then reach around to tuck the ends into the holders on the frame.  Simple, cheap, removable, durable.

Another alternative to consider? The down tube holding the Reflex mechanism could instead be sheathed in a twin tapered ends of foam of varying densities to shape the sail 3 dimensionally, then nothing can break and replacement parts will be easy to keep on hand.  Team Crazy Drivers used ultra shortie short magic sticks to shape the sail to a couple inches worth of distortion.

The sail material seemed to be incarex to my untrained eye and the assembly construction was top notch.  I'd like to see a double line of straight stitching along the trailing edge instead of the triple zig-zag (so the kite backs-up better knifing thru the wind).  Naturally the folds on the leading edge sleeve need to be reinforced, at least on mine.

You will have great fun on this kite, but personally it needs some beefing up for a heavy handed flailer such as myself.  My zen flew in the same conditions as the Reflex, but I've worn two of those wings out already.  Fletch has had the Reflex for a few sessions now and he can fly the stitching out of that thing.  

You need to experience it for yourself and see what you think.  I'm not the opinion you should trust, I don't fly any revolution kites as a stock product and haven't since about 1999.  I know this kite will be a special project for the WoW Kite Club someday.  Keep what you like and change what you don't, then see where it takes us.

Nice review.

Sent from my iPhone using KiteLife mobile app

[Wayne Dowler]

So they didn't fold the LE sleeve over like a Pro or NYM? Fray time! How about reinforcing strips where the LE folds? I haven't seen the new cap system, but those rods are bigger (5/16" compared to 1.5 1/4" rods) so that needs to be scaled down if it's going to be the new norm for their other platforms.

I know you like the French bridle Paul - think it will lend itself to it? From the reports of those at KP, the Reflex was as good or better than a Zen in light wind - without the Reflex springs in it!! Did you try it without them?? Heard that without the springs, it flew pretty much like any other Rev! 

And those handles!!?? I get the adjustable idea, but do you think it will hold up to rigorous use?

 

Maybe another testing session is in order! At least you got one near you to try!!

[John Barresi]

Most in depth, accurate and practical review I've read so far Paul - thanks! Very similar to what I found in my own test flights.

[andykaplan]

Paul - Great review, very helpful....but I'm still wondering if you have a recommendation for purchase:  now or wait for some of the kinks to be worked out?  For those who don't have a Zen looking for low wind performance?  For a fun alternative?  For those of us less skilled (more forgiving kite at the expense of performance?)

Where do you come out?

[Wayne Dowler]

2 hours ago, andykaplan said:

Paul - Great review, very helpful....but I'm still wondering if you have a recommendation for purchase:  now or wait for some of the kinks to be worked out?  For those who don't have a Zen looking for low wind performance?  For a fun alternative?  For those of us less skilled (more forgiving kite at the expense of performance?)

Where do you come out?

All the Revs require some skills - forgiving?? While I wouldn't suggest a Rev 2 or B2 to learn on, all the Revs fly with pretty much similar characteristics. They all are capable of forward, backward, sideways, inverted, flight. One of the selling points of the whole quad experience - control! In other words - learn to fly one, you can pretty much fly them all!

There are more common sizes - the 1.5 size is probably the most popular. Has models from the EXP all the way up to a "B"pro. Things like changes to the cut of the sail, rod placement, etc, are some of what set each apart. The Rev1/Zen size and the Rev2/B2 size are a little more on the specialty scale, as far as most purchases are concerned. Usually someone gets one of them to specifically fill a need.

Will this be your first Rev purchase? If so, stick to the 1.5 size as a first buy, especially if you have any dreams of flying in a line! Like I said - it is the most common and you would be most likely to see more flying this size than either of the others - combined!

Good flying!

[andykaplan]

Thanks for the reply -- but I may have been unclear.   I already own a few Revs (all 1.5's of some flavor) and would call myself an intermediate flyer.  I'm intrigued by the Reflex, but haven't seen a real one nor spoken to anyone that's really flown it...so I'm trying to get a feel for who should buy it.  The review has lots of pros and cons, so I was trying to ask for a more "boiled down" answer:  a) is it ready for prime time, or are there still real issues to work out, and b ) where does it fit (is it just "different", is it a Zen alternative (don't have one of those but do fly in light wind with my SUL) c) is it kind of an easy to fly kite (marketed with "autopilot", so...?) or just another flavor of Rev with its own characteristics?

 

Thanks!

 

 

[Wayne Dowler]

Understood! 

While I haven't had the chance to fly one personally, some of your questions I can't answer. From what I've heard - it may be a Zen replacement and a possible indoor too! Being a bit bigger than the 1.5, but not as big as a Zen ( Rev1 sized) it is said to have a very big wind range, but until I get the chance to fly one - ??? That being said - the larger size from a 1.5 does seem to lend itself to a lighter wind platform!

As far as the mods made to create it - only time will tell if they hold up to the "real world" use, dished out by hard core fliers! Maybe some flaws, as well as benefits, will show up as it is longer on the market!

Some of us feel it's "gimmicky", some think Rev is trying to reach new heights in design (pun intended). Only time will tell which!

[makatakam]

Just remember -- a greater sail area without a decrease in the weight to sail area ratio will not fly more easily, only slower.