New member from Central Oregon

[DTill]

Hello kite life!

I've been a lurker on here all summer. I've  dabbled in flying things for year's,  from me on a snowboard learning rodeo flips to 3d RC airplnes. Avid disc golfer building a new couse in my hometown. All ways  had a cheap stunt kite to mess around with on surfing trips, but forgot it on a trip this spring. Popped  into Zephyurs in Depoe Bay to pickup a ultimate disc to play  catch  with and walked out with a prism synapse  140. Went to Agate beach  in way to much wind and  had the time of my life.The next day the wind died and all I  wanted to do was fly, bummer only way to kill the wind is to buy a new kite! So 6 months  later  I have acquired a prism hypnotist, 4d , 2 micons, sky dog jammin and Kymera. Watched some videos and learned to do fades and got some yo yos, then went  to the Lincoln City kite festival and saw quads for the first time. Damn thats cool! How have I  never seen these before? Sunday of the event I got up super early and there was no wind. Again? Walked around talking to people trying to buy a used Rev, but didn't really realize the caliber of who I was talking to. At some piont I  had asked Conner Dorrian if he had a used Rev. Someone refered me to "John" I then realized he designed the kite I  had tucked  under  my  arm. He was cool enough to show be how to properly tension the wing tips. What a cool small community this kite thing really is. Ive just picked up a Rev classic 1.5 and finally clicked with it today, was really fighting the DLK muscle  memory. Learning  to fly a quad in central Oregon is a challenge. But I had  an 'a haw" moment today  and the brain connected to the lines. I think I can do this!  Probably in the market for  a vented/mid vent soon?

[midibot]

Welcome to the forum. In reading your story I found myself smiling a bit to myself, as I recognised the signs. You are surely bit!

Lots of help, advice and fun available here.

Enjoy.

.

[Wayne Dowler]

Depending on how "high" your winds get there, most can make do with a standard - full vent combo. The mid is a great kite, but there would still be times it will be overpowered. Those 2 sails and a couple  of frames will handle just about anything.

 

[makatakam]

Hi, and welcome to the forum.

[khsidekick]

Welcome to the forum and to the dark side. The first time I saw a quad line kite was also in Lincoln City about 5 years ago. Back then I lived in Colorado and only flew a few times at most a year. Now my family lives in Coos Bay and we fly almost every weekend. My son did his first performance at this years Lincoln City Fall Festival with a duel line kite. If your ever in the area we are always looking for people to fly with and will be attending both festivals at Lincoln City next year. I hope you keep having those “ a Haw” moments. Have fun.


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[DTill]

Thanks for all the  replys, and yes the bug has bit. The wind here is fairly on and off but with the quad I can wait for the  wind then do a sequence of moves and bring it back down. Had some decent wind to day and really got the hang of it. Flying with a P90 frame and 50#x35` lines. 50#x50' lines on the way and going to chop out a P2X frame for something in between. Is the reflex Rx considered a full or xtra vent?

[Paul LaMasters]

save some more dough and skip directly to an acquisition of a Shook Mesh Masterpiece 75% as your next kite if you are after decent-to-big wind ranges.  The sail is strips of fabric with gaps/holes in between.  Lighter in weight than a full vent or an extraVent because the weight of the screening material is vastly higher than the Icarex sail material alone.  I recommend a frame from Jon Trennepol (Skyshark called a CLX-150 or a travel frame of P-300 and P-90/or 100s).  

Ligher weight means a bigger wind range, like a 5-30 mph spread, depending on the framing choices.  A light flexible frame is fun to flail around with alone, 'cause it instantly refills with pressure (after dumping it ~ doing tricks and such).  A more rigid frame "tracks" better when flying in a group setting.  Flexible wants to "turn in it's center", whilst a more rigid frame wants to rotate on a wing-tip.  Does that make sense?

The CLX frame is a fatter diameter (5/16s with plugs to fit Rev- End -Caps, so the leading edge has some curvature, ..... over the top ..... like a frisbee-shape instead of a dinner plate's edge on view.  What does that matter?,.. that curvature GLIDES thru the air, as opposed to just falling like a rock.  Some tricks, like a "Falling Leaf" want that glide removed,.... some like a throw&catch want the glide as pronounced as possible.  The fatter wall diameter doesn't mean it can't flex and store energy.  It is responsive and not at all a heavy solution.  It will not replace a set of original Diamonds though (HA!)

The Shook is made to your own specifications, no one else can have your color pattern.  The 75% number represents a percentage, as compared to a mid-vent or a fully vented sail,... This one is in between them, but in reality it covers both wind ranges completely.  Darn it, it should! they cost 600 bucks plus.  But, its like buying a kite that is almost always perfect for today's conditions, even if they change during the occasion.

Eliot makes 'em to your spec, call him (Flying Smiles Kites) and discuss your needs/desires/concerns/exceptations,... Sail comes in a variety of configurations: 40%, 75%, 100% and the 135%.  Are you wanting a Dacron or nylon leading edge sleeve (why), a couple of bridle choices (Cath uses the French and Eliot is on a stocker), even magic sticks in a couple of lengths (16's are better) and LED lighting options, so light in weight you don't have to remove 'em.  Simple seconds to install, water-proof and absolutely out of the way if you want to do "Clam-Shell Roll-ups" on the ground in the dark!

You need 4 quad kites or more eventually; an indoor/SUL, a full sail, a Shook 75% and a Vicky-type, a few interchangeable frames for them, some different handle lengths, (longer for dead calm, so the action necessary to MAKE it fly,..... is in your hands, more so than in your whole body/or feet). Some different line lengths and strengths..... I recommend Skybond, it's thin, slippery and durable,... I carry 50#, 100# and 170#, but in the land of no-wind (Washington DC) the 50# lines are used more frequently.

Don't waste a ton of dough on other solutions, and I pay retail+ myself, so I'm not compensated for this endorsement, just another happy customer

if you are truly hooked get the Shook!

[ACrop]

Welcome to the dark side. I enjoyed quite a smile reading your post, it is fun to see others bitten by the bug. Make time to fly with others as they will mentor you along when you need it and enjoy watching you smile too.

I know what you mean about not knowing who you are talking too....the kite evens are such a mix of folk and everyone seems to just assume that everyone else knows everyone. It can be hard to know how to connect into the fun at times, but it sounds like you were not shy and did quite well.


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[DTill]

I has hoping to cross paths with John at this event. I well knew who I was talking to, just thought there would be more of a kite swap scene there. Another day of good wind today, felt really connected. Up down,side slides, dive to stop, spin accelerate up stop spin, dive brake spin up. QUADS ROCK! Can't believe how fast you can progress when the muscle  memory kicks in!  Felt like I tore a hole in the sky today and drove away with a smile on my face .Flew the 3 wrap frame on 90x90s in 10-18. I've been flying non reflex and it seems more connected. I really like flying on the 50#x 35' the long lines felt delayed/muted.  Looking for a higher wind sail, vented or B2? I try to fly between work ending and soccer starting about hour & 1/2. Had a soccer coach tell me my Rev is really distracting the kids, but so does a blade of grass.

[khsidekick]

Had a coach tell me the same thing once. The B2 might be hard to find I have a Standard one and it doesn’t get let out of the bag much. I enjoy flying it but in medium or high wind the mid to full vent will be better in the long run. You’ll be amazed how much smoother the vented kites are in bumpy inland wind. I’ve got a few different options your welcome to try if your ever in the Coos Bay Area.


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[Wayne Dowler]

All the Rev B series are no longer in production and will only be available as store's stock dwindles or on the used market. Got to keep an eye out for them! There are also many other options out there today. No longer the "knock-offs" either, but solid, good looking, and capable. The Djinn, Phoenix, 3 Winds, Freilein, ABS, Shook, Polo, and Rev, all share the quad market. All are based on Joe Hadzicki"s wing design in some form with some minor changes done. (just generalizing here) .But all have good quality workmanship and fly well. Can't hardly go wrong with any of the choices out there today!

[Breezin]

Welcome. Wow, kind of terrifying how fast the dark ones have turned you LOL. I've got a UL Rev but haven't learned to fly it yet. I have a Mind Trick vented (30+ mph) and a Delta Hawk speed kite(45+mph) for high winds. Winds here at times get pretty gusty and bumpy. The Mind Trick handles those winds the best out of my kites. Really need to learn the quads and get one of those weird thong looking things. People here sure seems to twist my head in that direction alot.Flown in 35+ but need to feel what 40+ feels like . Yes it scares me . Fun though .

[DTill]

I hear you breezin, when i get into something it tends to be with both  feet. Kites are cool because  I  can always  have one in my  truck and stop at a field and fly for an hour on my way home from work. Rc airplanes are a pain because  of  batteries ,bulky fragile  & planes super fancy 7 channel transmitters. Kites are cheap and organic. You and the wind. Google crack yak 55 you'll  see the correlation. Thats my favourite  plane. Not sure whats allowed on this forum, but high line kites of Berkley  has B2 standards in all colors. Its small and challenging,  but prism said the micron is hard to fly and I  love that little thing. Thinking  about grabbing  a iconic sail before they disappear. 

 

 

 

 

[Breezin]

My neighbor runs a small RC club and has 2 "real" planes in his hanger. Pretty cool having a private  runway right across the street. He makes a lot of his own kit planes, RC planes, helicopters and quads. Father in law was into that real and toy stuff too.They tried to get me into it but no. Go and watch at times. Seems pricey and complex unless I were to compete. He does. Pretty cool having a RC zoom by at 100mph so close ya think you could spit on it.Probably  why I'm so keen on learning speed kites. Hanging onto a kite 120' away going 100 mph is just going to be  cool.Watched the Dave Larson Yak video. Never watched 10 continuous minutes of RC ever unless being polite. That was really, really cool. Can definitely see what you mean. 6:40 in looks like a real familiar move LOL.I took to the Micron quick too. Last winter I'd go out in 20+ winds with 100' lines. Lines would get tangled up in the grass and kite would hop, bounce and skid all over the place. Amusing but I also gained some insight to how things work. Things happen so fast that some of it sticks just trying to keep up. Kite WILL trick. Just really fast. 20+ winds and my skills snarled the heck out of the 50' set. Not long after I donated it.I like the smaller fast kites equally as much as my big wing kites.I really dig the differences. The Benson Superfly standard is a gotta get it in the next year. 7 footer that flies to 25 mph. Tricks ought to be really humming along in 20. I keep meaning to get a Spiderkites 1.2 speed foil. Thing will go 120 mph and less than $100.00. Fit right in the console of my truck with a little room to spare. Make plans for a kite and some other kite just jumps right in the way.Doesn't really suck though once I wade thru all the how the heck did that happen again stuff 😒.

[DTill]

Funny you bring the airstrip thing up, I happen to live on Piper Dr. With an airstrip in my backyard. Maybe I should get some leds and  try night flying. It's illegal to fly kites within 5 miles of a airstrip, but i have steady 3-5 blowing straight down the tarmac. And it's dark. Maybe the 35ft. lines have a calling. Your a bad influence.

[riffclown]

that's not quite accurate. the five mile rule has weight and ceiling restrictions.  Ask the airfield manager what's allowed and where. The more responsible you are, the better your chances. Most likely you'll be asked to not fly in line with the runway, stay a certain distance  to the side and may have a ceiling to observe. (typically less than 100')

The Wright festival and Wright memorial are next to an active airport. Kite flying is not only allowed, it's welcome. Common sense applies and no flying on Memorial hill.

I fly very close to an active runway quite often. I have some rules I have to follow but again, common sense goes a long way.

[DTill]

Riff, interested  in some of the mesh  tails kites you built. I'm looking into a vented quad, wondering if i should try sewing one up. I've got a few tails from the microns. We have a sunroom  almost dedicated to sewing  already, girlfriend is really into it and i bought her a nice Brother xr1300 a few years back. It has the three loop stich programmed. She wants me to build  a layout table in the corner. I've  scratch built 3d rc planes from sheets of epp foam and printed plans. Seems doable?  

[Paul LaMasters]

Go for it, but don't expect to save money until you are deep into kite building thing!  The Rev shape is basically all straight lines, some reinforcements where necessary, a proper wrapped carbon frame and good lines to fly on, + handles!

My first sewing project was this shaped quad-line too.  Eventually I learned some folks can do "design and building" better than me, but I still direct the symphony even if I can't adequately play any of those instruments (by comparison!)

Shook, Bazzer, McNeill, Reed, Hoac,... all of the best builders use Icarex as their fabric of choice.  It is more difficult to sew than most other materials, certainly more so than anything fabric which your gal might have experience with,... that said it just adjusting the machine to sew "super slippery" material.  It is expensive and fails catastrophically, but it doesn't stretch nearly as much or carry water's weight in tough conditions.

I'd recommend attending a builder's retreat first, so you can see lots of options for how things are accomplished.  "Steal the best, dump the rest" is my Motto.  I sat next to Eliot Shook and we marveled at the tricks of building known by the KiteSquid (Harold Ames).  Eventually Eliot went on to greatness as a source of masterpiece quad-lined kites, but Harold had a profound impact upon him intitially.  

Practice until everything looks like it is perfect.  Spend more time on the design aspects,.... construction and the actual part of it called sewing is only 10% of the total effort.

Pushing the envelope? relates to changes which may or may not prove beneficial,.. but you need enough time on the lines to feel these comparisons.  what is the objective you are trying to accomplish?  did it help or hurt?  Change only one thing at a time so you can control the scientific variables.  Did that change add "oversteer" or lessen it, just as an example?

Start with a beat-up used kite so you can see what you need to address and copy what works.  It will be abused is some areas and pretty pristine in others.  See if there's something you could do to address these concerns. I am certain I could send you a sail (that was returned to me after seeking repairs).  A note was affixed, it said "you should not be allowed to play with nice toys".  four kites were resurrected, the other one could be yours, but it is not flyable, just for measurements as a starting point.

Enjoy the journey of making it yourselves and insure you both learn how to fly together too.  That way you have a design partner for a cooperative project.  Those are almost more fun that the smile on your face during that first maiden flight!

[riffclown]

@DTill Welcome to Kitelife. You've picked a great place to pick the minds of kiters worldwide.

8 hours ago, DTill said:

Riff, interested  in some of the mesh  tails kites you built. I'm looking into a vented quad, wondering if i should try sewing one up. I've got a few tails from the microns. We have a sunroom  almost dedicated to sewing  already, girlfriend is really into it and i bought her a nice Brother xr1300 a few years back. It has the three loop stich programmed. She wants me to build  a layout table in the corner. I've  scratch built 3d rc planes from sheets of epp foam and printed plans. Seems doable?  

My mesh kites were all learning experiments into what's possible. Using tails was a way to avoid all the extra hemming and sewing. All that being said, I'd be remiss in my respect of Eliot Shook if I didn't refer you to him first.. He's a true craftsman and this whole mesh thing came from the minds of Cath and Eliot Shook. He sat down with me and showed me how to make a leading edge the right way. I learned the majority of what i know about kite making from him. The rest I learned from trial and error. I very much appreciate you've been inspired. the best way to learn is to also be willing to make mistakes. The Skywriter (G-Kites) tails are my tails of choice for making tails kits but as Paul pointed out above, they are Nylon and will absorb water and will stretch. The criss-crosses are only sewn in one direction (you choose which). That allows them to not only shape the air better, it also allows anything that works its way in to also work its way out.. I flew a couple of nylon/sand raviolis a bit until I figured that one out.

As for construction, look back at my posts and you can see the way I made all of them. I've held nothing back.

Pick your colors, weave as you see fit, and go for it. The tighter the spacing the more sail area you have but the heavier your kite will be. For a first project, I'd keep two things in mind:

1. Symmetry is everything. Size and spacing are critical to have a balanced kite. Play with the dimensions if you like but remember to keep it balanced.
2. If you make a rectangle and cut it diagonally, one side will be the front and the other side will show the back so plan your weaves ( and material orientation) accordingly.

If you have an extra full sail, you can also consider venting it to your own specifications..

As you build you go from Will it fly? at first to: Did that change make the difference I expected?

Be willing to explore. You CAN do anything. The hardest cut is the first one. First few until you get the hang of it need to be well oversized and you can trim down to match. Welcome to the OTHER kite addiction..

One last pointer about using the tails as a construction material.. They are not necessarily consistent in width along the entire length of the tail. The Transition tails aren't even necessarily perfectly straight. Plan accordingly to mitigate those inconsistencies.

 

[ACrop]

I would add that planning on doing a practice wing is helpful. That first wing will teach you things about handling your machine and materials. Kite fabric is not forgiving at all of uneaven tension or less than smooth moments feeding it into the machine. It also keets needle holes permanently as a record of errors. . If you skip the practice wing you will likely find that your first kite is noticably asymmetrical from errors. I did some scrap practice before my first wing, but the size and weight of the first wing changes things and it too three wings of work to make a 2 wing kite.

Also, kites involve a lot of long straight sewing so check your bobbin fill more often than normal. It is easy to crank out distance faster on kites than other projects that are curvier.

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[Paul LaMasters]

bobbins running out & slicing thru all the fabric layers (when back-or-front cutting) are mistakes we all make, ....how you fix 'em is WHY a retreat is so beneficial!  Or to sit with a master willing to share and pick their brain.

You can make a kite with perfect stitches and every single material thing "the best that money can buy".  Nobody will ever care more than you, about your kite.  Are you willing to put in the time for exquisite results? I am not, I'd rather fly than build and have someone build it "my way" even if it costs extra is my current method of operation.

Darkest layers go in front (facing the pilot in flight) and many folks "mount their appliqué efforts" onto a white background (you can see the lines traced easily on it, very translucent)

Back-cutting is also an art, you need consistent pushing thru the layers to be removed and NOT taking anything beyond that with your scissors.  Do you prevent full closure of the sides on the scissors to help?  Is the bottom edge (that slides between layers) of the scissors rounded off, so you don't poke thru the wrong layer?  Can you maintain the width of the overlap?  Does you unthreading effort "look good"?  Even seen a Lam Hoac kite?  His stitches transition from zip-zag to straight in a barely perceived fashion, each narrower than the previous width, just as an example.  He cares more than about anybody, you pay for that level of concern too.

how do you connect two pieces of slippery fabric, such that you can control the input and steering of the materials thru the sewing machine?  Some folks wet it, some use spray glue, some masking tape, the "randy Tom method" is very effect but wastes tremendous amount of fabric.  Some double face tape and sew thru both layers and the adhesive,... heck there's even a tape for "no-sew" construction techniques (VHB 9460 by 3M, Very high bond).  Again, attend a retreat and learn all the choices, see how they are used by those practitioners and if any are adaptable to your own personal preferences.

Enjoy, ask questions and share your journey w/us.

best regards, -plm

[Breezin]

Check out http://Kitebuilder.com You'll see some familiar folks.

Edited October 31, 2018 by John Barresi
Link edited to remove “s”, singular in the correct URL.

[riffclown]

And don't forget pictures. We love pictures..

[DTill]

Wow, thanks for all the responses. I didn't expect my "Hello" thread to blow up like like this. Probably going to buy a vented and slowly sew up a mesh / vented 1.5 & 2 over the winter. Everyone's responses where fairly overwhelming. So the shook mesh is out of my price range right now. I have a rev classic 1.5 standard grey fade from Kite connection. Classic 1.5 full vent from kite connection or the newer rx spider as next purchase?  

[Paul LaMasters]

Full vent has interchangeable 1/4" diameter tubes which fit with your existing kite,... that would be the major advantage in my book.

Make certain you acquire 2 wraps or something light PLUS 3 or 4 wraps as something heavy/stiff.  The CLX-150's from Skyshark are popular on the East coast as a light weight tube with good response when returning from flexed.  "Hybrid travel framing" tubes option will also allow a greater level of customization w/o undue\excessive costs. P-90s or P-100s with some 300s at the junctions.  A light weight frame in a full vent is fun to flail around alone as it instantly powers back up with a steady double digit wind speed available.  By like token, you could "frame stiff" and fly that same frame in the full sail for better tracking or flying in a group setting.

The best frames are likely unavailable..... the original Diamond tubes from Revolution & the Green Race w/o the green stripe/tipped label.

The Spider uses a different/larger diameter tube (5/16th's) so that choice would eventually necessitate carrying two different diameters as you can vary stiffness for the local conditions that day.

Fear not, we all started with one kite, it was perfect regardless of the conditions too!  Eventually we go more and more kites until the layers of conditions for which they were appropriate overlapped each other.  I must have six or seven kites just for a dead calm outside.  We get those about 5 months out of the year, indoor conditions but with an unlimited ceiling we call it!

There are lots of choices for 1/4 inch diameter tubes that fit the 1.5 sized platform.