The Phoenix Pro

[bbailey49]

@Bazzer  and @Scout, would one of you perhaps like to drop some detailed info on the Phoenix Pros here.  Being a mechanical engineer, I'm kinda curious about some of the design attributes and how they affect the flight compared to the B-Pros.  Thought one of you might want to drop a little insider info on here for us quadheads.  Just a thought.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/155150467832504/permalink/1317884161559123/

 

 

[RobB]

I'm eager to hear some details about the Phoenix Pros as well. Especially the differences when framed with Skyshark vs. Rev sticks. The bottom vent idea is interesting, too. I am mostly interested in the variations that are comfortable in 20+mph winds, but also see the day coming that I'll also have to replace my existing 1.5b sails...

[SparkieRob]

Here's a screen grab of the pdf from the appropriate FB page. Sorry if the resolution isn't readable. Not too sure of the Skyshark vs Rev rods comparison.

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[dragonfish]

Do we know what spars come with the Phoenix Pros?  

[SparkieRob]

Do we know what spars come with the Phoenix Pros?  

I'd be assuming they would be Revolution spas. But Baz or Jayne would be best to ask. Even the Shooks or Mark VDC.

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[bookboy]

8 hours ago, dragonfish said:

Do we know what spars come with the Phoenix Pros?  

I had a conversation with Jayne Poulter and she said they supply Skyshark. Or you can go sail only.

Jonathan

[hyzakite]

Kinda reminds me of Carl Robertshaw's Rev 1 pattern.

[RobB]

I was reading through the information that's available, and read that framing is a choice of Skyshark, Rev rods, or no frame. I wonder what the equivalent Skyshark is to a Green Race rod ?    

[Wayne Dowler]

Rob - don't have a direct comparison, much like I couldn't compare  the T-2 rods in the Freilein to Rev's rods. I've flown Rev gear long enough to know that, so I did put a bl. race frame in a std Freilein and really felt the kite come alive. My concern on the Freilein tubes is that all I hear is how stiff and light they are, but pure stiffness might not be a good thing. It really is the return feeling, that "snap back" that I look for. 

From what I've heard from others, SS rods pretty much are equal to the wrap rods - P200 = 2 wrap, P300 = 3 wrap, etc. Haven't heard of any direct replacements for any "specialty" rods - race, diamond, etc.

Others care to share??

[Paul LaMasters]

P-90s for diamond, less snap back (slingshot vs crossbow, power return) but a third the price, easier to mix stiffnesses and waste spars with travel frame considerations,

get exactly what you pay for,... If you can't afford it there are alternatives, just not a clean hit down the fairway, let alone like a hole in one!

[Scout]

Ah shucks. Can't a girl stay anonymous .... We are away camping at the moment. 

There's lots to say about the Phoenix range and the technical developments that are included. The FB page has the tech spec - thanks for posting here rob    

We can provide sail only, or the standard spars are sky shark  there are other options available also - it really depends on your preference as a flyer and how you like your kite to feel  

I like black race rods and p300s but I'm not a seasoned flyer   Bazzer has his own opinions and preferences too  it depends on your style and what the  wind is doing too  

Back soon ! 

[kevmort]

Ok being a bit green and still newish would my exp frame fit ?????

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[hyzakite]

I don't know if anyone in the forum has a Phoenix yet, your best bet is to contact Bazzer directly for exact rod sizes, I would guess they would fit, but guessing isn't as accurate as  knowing for sure.

[SparkieRob]

Ok being a bit green and still newish would my exp frame fit ?????

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Yes, the EXP frame will definitely fit a Pheonix Pro sail. All the 1.5 sized frames are interchangeable with all the 1.5 sails.

The EXP frame is a 3 wrap.

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[hyzakite]

There you go, so next step on your way to covering the complete wind range is the full vent. Mid and extra vents can wait for down the road sometime.

[kevmort]

Cool [emoji4] I'll have to track that ex pat down lol [emoji4][emoji4] next stop glued to the blue [emoji4][emoji4] thanks guys [emoji4][emoji4]

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[kevmort]

Think it may of been a bit to breezy that day for my exp lol

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[Scout]

Hi all. Sorry we haven't got back to this recently.
Right now we are not in a position to openly detail the technical specifications made to the Phoenix pros other than what is on the FB page " kites by Bazzer "
I am really sorry guys. I hope you understand.


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[SparkieRob]

Hi all. Sorry we haven't got back to this recently.
Right now we are not in a position to openly detail the technical specifications made to the Phoenix pros other than what is on the FB page " kites by Bazzer "
I am really sorry guys. I hope you understand.


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It's all good in the hood.


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[happysuperbutton]

Curious, a year later, definitely seeing a good number of Ppros in the sky in the YouTubes, even in teams, anyone able to update this op's topic on how a P std compares to a B std? Can't take my eyes of off you (pretty sail) 

The FB group pages only show even more alluring imagery but nothing on flight characteristics and experience.

[riffclown]

The Vents in the Trailing edge are not (in my opinion) an improvement for a full sail or even a mid vent. It makes the sail load a touch awkwardly. 

If you need a full vent, then it seems to be the right spot for additional venting.. the full sail however would benefit from being a FULL sail.. YMMV

The Ashes model is more of a dream to fly but it's more in the SUL range.

[Wayne Dowler]

As one member of a team that flies them:

If you are used to the wind ranges of the Rev, be ready for a bit of a different one. Those TE vents do slightly increase the ranges on the STD, MID, and F/V. Those vents do work very well at the top of the sail's wind range. I also questioned the TE vents on the STD, especially when at the lower limit of that sail's range. But along came the Ashes! Did you know that unless specifically ordered as such, no SUL version of a "B"pro was ever made available? (Yes Paul, got ya!) The Ashes is his first readily available 1.5 size SUL. And believe me - it is well put together! Got caught in a wind shift at a festival and ended up on Ashes when we should have been on Mids! Not only did the sails hold up, but so too the rods (P-100's)! Diamonds would have been blown to smithereens

Even more of a challenge to overcome, was how the SkyShark rods would feel, compared to the Rev rods I had flown for years. While slightly different, not unmanageable. They do have a slightly softer flex to them, For those that want to use Rev rods in the Phoenix sails, use a 5/16th" drill bit to clean out the caps without drilling any tip material away.  Rods like diamonds, 2 wrap or Race will fit OK, the 3's and 4's could stick in the cap and be a real PITA to remove!

Since I have the full suite of Ashes to X/V - it has been an adjustment mentally to get used to a different wind range. But overall very satisfied with their quality, craftsmanship, and overall performance!

 

[Paul LaMasters]

Ha!, Believe me, you can get anything you want Wayne, if you are persistent enough and throw sufficient cash at the project.  Anything Bazzer would not do directly, Eliot Shook would.  I have probably half a dozen cooperative efforts between these two fine gentlemen, all of them crafted as SULs on the leading edge sleeve.

So you want an SUL full vented Bazzer B=Pro (mine exploded and literally ripped itself in half vertically during a lessons workshop on flick-flaks and falling leaf tricks, so Revolution replaced it as defective and it had to be built "my way" too) How about a Mid-vent and another SUL to match the previous two worn out? Or a replacement Zen to the 2nd one, also worn out?

if fact, you want different material entirely for the leading edge sleeve, you could furnish it too! My choice is mylar-backed nylon, shiny side out.  Cath Shook and our missing departed buddy Rich Comras were also allowed to use my SUL materials on their own personal kites LE sleeve.  Those are all Shook mesh masterpieces.

You can get the leading edge sewn tighter to the tube (so only one 1/4" diameter fits in there).  You can get extra reinforcing patches built into the leading edge, so it doesn't wear out so fast. Heck you might even want covers sewn over the elastic knots at the bottom of the sail.

The factory asked me several times NOT to advertise the modifications I received based upon over 25K spent directly with Revolution.  Everyone will not receive the same services I did.  Still folks would call and ask for their kite to be "lamaster-ized".

The first time I asked Dantonio about a join venture between Bazzer and Eliot he laughed in my face and told me I'd have to call Lolly instead for a customized Zen meeting my parameters.

 

[Wayne Dowler]

Paul: you are one of the "fortunate" ones! Spent years at your craft, formed strong opinions, and had the cash to execute your requirements. Well done. Others have had no choice but to buy used, on sale, or fly donated kites! Just a fact of life. I was only able to start flying Pros by buying a 3 kite set used - and those were at least 5th hand! Both of my extreme wind kites (Zen + X/V) were used too.  So put me at the other end of that spectrum.

This set of Phoenix sails are the first brand new, complete set I've owned! Flying with other Phoenix kites on the team is no problem at all, we just agree on a setup and go from there. The "rub" comes when flying in mixed company, sometimes you are still on a STD, when others are using Mids. As long as the response is similar among all kites - all good! Reminds me of flying with Paul D. and his Shook's, they are good in lots of conditions. But you usually have to swap at odd times in relation to the rest of the group. Not a bad thing, just different.

[happysuperbutton]

18 hours ago, Wayne Dowler said:

As one member of a team that flies them:

If you are used to the wind ranges of the Rev, be ready for a bit of a different one. Those TE vents do slightly increase the ranges on the STD, MID, and F/V. Those vents do work very well at the top of the sail's wind range. I also questioned the TE vents on the STD, especially when at the lower limit of that sail's range. But along came the Ashes! Did you know that unless specifically ordered as such, no SUL version of a "B"pro was ever made available? (Yes Paul, got ya!) The Ashes is his first readily available 1.5 size SUL. And believe me - it is well put together! Got caught in a wind shift at a festival and ended up on Ashes when we should have been on Mids! Not only did the sails hold up, but so too the rods (P-100's)! Diamonds would have been blown to smithereens

Even more of a challenge to overcome, was how the SkyShark rods would feel, compared to the Rev rods I had flown for years. While slightly different, not unmanageable. They do have a slightly softer flex to them, For those that want to use Rev rods in the Phoenix sails, use a 5/16th" drill bit to clean out the caps without drilling any tip material away.  Rods like diamonds, 2 wrap or Race will fit OK, the 3's and 4's could stick in the cap and be a real PITA to remove!

Since I have the full suite of Ashes to X/V - it has been an adjustment mentally to get used to a different wind range. But overall very satisfied with their quality, craftsmanship, and overall performance!

 

Thanks Wayne for that detailed experience flying it. I'm mad envious. Such beautiful sails against a blue sky.

When you said increase wind range, that means like if a rev is 3-8mph, then the phoenix is 4-9, right? Opposed to wider range like 2-9.

Can see how the kite would need more wind to fly given the TE vents.

And what's this Ashes model ye speaketh of? Is it a color option or an entirely different sail construction? I see Ameyst and FireandIce options but no Ashes yet.

Also, isn't Rev's new direction also with 5/16 rods? Rx/XX.. sounds like it's a unison choice over 1/4 rods. Is stiffer better for precision and inverted flight? (generally speaking, I know every pilot is an individual)

 

Thanks for chiming in on the Ppros, I really miss having a "magazine" to read in-depth technical reviews on kite models like here https://kitelife.com/2007/02/01/issue-52-review-of-b-series-by-revolution-kites/

Sure it might be some kind of conflict of interest between manufacturers, but a kite is a kite and we all love love kites.

Maybe I'll write my own up on a blog somewhere, there's a number of new models (Ppro, freliene, Rx, XX, Spider, Classic, etc) that im sure New comers would like to read up on outside of the sales-descriptions on commerce sites...hehehe