Learning catch and throw. Need some tips.

[DTill]

I'm getting the catch down fairly consistent, but the lines keep jumping into the bridle and tangling. I'm giving the tug pretty high in the window with the kite coming down at a fairly steep angle. Should I give the tug lower in the window with a lower angle glide or work on a more gentle catch. Do you initiate the tug just before it stalls at the top or slow it down 3/4 up and give it a soft high tug. I  thinking a more progessive catch wil help. I've been using prism micon Dynemma lines cut down to 35ft. Just ordered a set of LPG 50# x 30ft lines that should be stiffer and slicker, hoping those help. Mostly practicing on a 1.5 classic with a P90 frame in very light wind. I'm thinking a stiffer frame will be easier to throw. Would a skyshark clx 150/ 250 leading edge help with glide? Or throw the 3 wrap in and pump it up?

[Wayne Dowler]

Can't help with the catch, but yes, a stiffer LE will help  the throw. Are you throwing it from an end? Then the whole LE has to absorb the energy you use to throw it. Stiffer will means less wobble as it goes out. Also try aiming upward a bit. Even on short lines, it needs some decent energy and room to glide and drift down. 

[riffclown]

We covered a lot of the specifics here.. Hopefully that thread will steer you in the right direction.

 

[riffclown]

Because you mention the "Classic" With the P90 frame, we'll you aren't using the Springs, correct?? The Springs on the restructured Revs change the dynamics of Catch and Throw tremendously.

[makatakam]

Stiffer line like LPG helps when learning because it doesn't allow the line to whip as much. Definitely disengage the springs if present or use a frame without them. 

Most of all, have fun, smile, and don't forget to breathe.

[DTill]

On 2/1/2019 at 7:25 AM, riffclown said:

Because you mention the "Classic" With the P90 frame, we'll you aren't using the Springs, correct?? The Springs on the restructured Revs change the dynamics of Catch and Throw tremendously.

Your correct Riff, like you I  don't fly with springs.

[SparkieRob]

The tug to initiate the glide part of the "catch" can be initiated at really any point in the window. Just remember the LE will glide in the direction it faces. I used to be fairly (very) aggressive on the pull but you don't need to be. A gentle tug is all it needs. The throw is the easy part. Like a javelin with a slight amount of rotation to make the LE face away and glide. A lighter LE just means you need to get the mass moving before you release. 99% of all my starts are using a throw on 50 feet and shorter. Can do it on longer but I'll use a stake for those... mostly.

Sent from my SM-G950F using KiteLife mobile app

[John Barresi]

The magic to keeping your lines tidy during catch and throw is the “U”... Having passed both handles to one hand for the pull, I sometimes flick that hand (and handles) deep out to the side as the kite is halfway down to me, this puts each end of the lines 4-6 ft apart, shaped like a “U” on the ground. No overlap, no tangles.

The only situation where the U may not free you, is debris or brush on the ground that may snag lines, a twig, random feather or even a HUMAN HAIR (true story) happens to get between two lines at the wrong spot... But this is rare, if you pick your spot for catching - respect the U.

There are also situations that may call for a harpoon layout on a throw... Continuing “S” pattern, like on the deck of a boat, between tether and spear, idea again is to eliminate overlap or lines rolling across the ground.

Which adds the other golden rule of line management on catch and throws... Try to avoid haphazardly dragging your lines, preserve the U if you must drag them, holding both kite and handles high to lessen the angle of drag.

 

[DTill]

Everything looks smoother when you do it. Thanks for the advise!

[John Barresi]

Rinse, repeat, rinse, repeat.

Cut down on the “hunt and peck”, go to it - do it, pause, toss, reorient, repeat, over and over at a steady rhythm - I guarantee your 100th attempt will be better than you 10th, so the gambit is to get there quick.

There is also this...

https://kitelife.com/forum/files/file/631-rev-tutorial-3d-flying/

[DTill]

Only thing I have a hard time with is knowing if the kite is stable enough to time the pull. You seem to drive it to the top and pull. I think I slowly get it to top and if it bobbles I bail. So Whump it up and pull before the wind directs where it goes? 

[John Barresi]

Yeah, just fly to the point (doing your best to arrive and transition with a straight leading edge), and pull - the rest is “hunt and peck”, go right for the mark, it’ll only feel rough the first few times.

[John Barresi]

Even speed up (normal flight), just powered up, not accelerating or trying to surge. The pause creates more time for bobble, kite is truer tracking when it’s driving, slack off and it will rotate.

[John Barresi]

Stability isn’t really key, main thing is having a truly straight leading edge and getting a ballenced (matched) pull on both top lines so it doesn’t buck to one side.

Clean process, rhythm, repeat.

[Paul LaMasters]

I've heard rumors, that the trick was invented by Lee Sedgwick, doing it SIDEWAYS too (not leading edge ~ leading) from a open van during the rainstorm at wildwood.  Has anyone accomplished the catch sideways (into and out of his van, so he didn't get wet!) is this true?

[Corey Bell]

8 hours ago, Paul LaMasters said:

I've heard rumors, that the trick was invented by Lee Sedgwick, doing it SIDEWAYS too (not leading edge ~ leading) from a open van during the rainstorm at wildwood.  Has anyone accomplished the catch sideways (into and out of his van, so he didn't get wet!) is this true?

Sideways? like wing tip leading?

[DTill]

So I got this trick so dialed that I started to catch it with my left hand while holding the handles in the same hand. Just reach  out your index finger and catch it. To bad that pokes your handles through the mesh. All good fun and visibly impressive, but it really destroys your leading edge mesh. Just noticed my grey fade full sail has 8-10 inchs of the mesh torn away. Time for some leading edge reinforcements and an extra straight stitch along  the trailing edge is next. Guess I'll really  beef it  up and make this my street sail. This is my first rev and lasťed a noob 9 months of flailing  and learning.  But all sails after this will be from Kite Forge.

[Paul LaMasters]

it can be saved, it's up to you (Eliot Shook or Paul Dugard, I recommend both HIGHLY ~ proven over several resurrection efforts each!), it will come back as stock or as modified as you desire.

A tighter sleeve on the leading edge?  "A-holes" instead of mesh LE? Different framing options? All spectra bridle? covers sewn over the knots? wear strips?

in perfect conditions, I can walk along side of the kite during the catch, grabbing it when you desire instead of when you need to, want to dash forward and catch it behind you back, or in your teeth, sit down Indian style and have it land in your lap?  This is on a 100 or 120 feet, obviously I can't throw it anywhere near that length, but it goes out "so far" and walking the rest of the slack out regains my flight. (sticks hold it inverted until then)

Practice on "longer than your demo lengths" so it appears effortless, almost magnetic.  Try to NOT pull from directly overhead, try 2/3 or 3/4s, fully stalled, so the kite's glide will apex during your yank and then come down towards you following the other side of that arc.

The further "out there" on the top line leaders, the better during your yank to catch it.  A longer pull adds more momentum, use as much arm movement as possible too.

If you pulled the bottom lines as violently you'd get a flick-flak or the beginnings of a falling leaf, (walk enough slack into the violence, WAIT, step back and remove the dramatically placed slack as the last possible second to stand it back upright again before impact with Mother Earth.

I love this quad line move outside and my kites are beat unmercifully doing it, decades of practice to master it fully.  I've seen a 3-pack stack caught indoors, that is totally beyond this old dog though

Throw & Catch rocks! You're not getting out of the first round of "Hot Tricks" w/o it!

[Wayne Dowler]

A friend has sourced a mesh made out of Kevlar for repairs. Weighs a bit more, but I understand almost bulletproof. 

 

[mebeatee]

On 2/13/2019 at 3:43 AM, Paul LaMasters said:

I've heard rumors, that the trick was invented by Lee Sedgwick, doing it SIDEWAYS too (not leading edge ~ leading) from a open van during the rainstorm at wildwood.  Has anyone accomplished the catch sideways (into and out of his van, so he didn't get wet!) is this true?

Probably as I've heard first and second hand accounts of his astounding flying...this done decades ago btw on his signature 1's.

Which may or may not have some ramifications as back then there were only two sizes of Rev....the 1 and 2 (yeah the Bactracker for a bit so 3). Most Rev fliers nowadays fly the 1.5 size in it's various guises, and even though I have more 1.5's than 1's or 2's, I still think of the 1.5 as a compromise between the two....which in effect it is... as I enjoy the 1 sizes (1, Zen, Robertshaw) the best,and can do  more "stuff" per se with those. I had a Supersonic that had some wonderful glides, as well as toss and catch.

I've never tried them, but quad sticks and the reflex system probably won't help catch and throws. I have a Rev 2 setup with no bridle and a 2wrap travel frame for 3D flying.

bt. 

[DTill]

Thanks for the replys, I'll be fixing this one myself. Already have the grossgrain from kite bag projects. Probably zigzag a stitch over the torn spots then add the tabs. I would like to cover the lower bungis as well. Did a Riff inspired triangle pocket on my 2 sized sail and that works great. 

Question for Paul, to tighten up the leading edge sleeve, do you assemble the leading edge and run a straight stitch with the needle in right position, presser foot running next to the rod?  My 1.5 sul could realy use this mod as well. Could be an awkward seam to sew.

[Paul LaMasters]

Not sure technique to accomplish, just know I like it,

call and ask, many builders help each other

[Paul LaMasters]

Quad Sticks and the reflex mechanism most certainly "alter the glide" which has a profound impact on the technique of catching the kite.  I know this because the 1st seven years I flew w/o them.  Now this type of mechanism is even on my indoor kites!  Experimenting over decades has proven their worth to me.  please form your opinions on actual comparison experiences not what has been shared vocally or online.  You should KNOW if it's better for you or not.  We're not talking a huge investment or modifications which can't be undone.

Take you kite off of the flying strings entirely and simply throw it out there, does it fly parallel with the ground for acres of distance?

That is the glide you are after, it happens by having a curvature OVER the leading edge sleeve, like a "Speed Series" Rev.  You can tune or adjust this curvature, but basically when it's all dialed in your hand fits between the frame and the sail.  This is the difference between a dinner plate and a Frisbee. Both will fly, one just does it remarkably better than the other.  Say you placed both of them on top of a smooth table, then kicked 'em towards the edge rapidly.  Which one will fly further away?

Now we all know there are two sides to every coin, you get heads up you give tails away!  Well dramatically altering the glide will affect your tricks availability too.  One is super easy the other darn near impossible, the glide determines which one you get (and give up!) 

Want a killer falling leaf?  That glide is your mortal enemy, it won't catch or throw nearly as easily with that gone, but proper techniques and short lines hide many a sin.  Not impossible, but certainly not FREE for the taking either.

in no wind you must add energy thru use of your feet, torso and arms, that means eventually you'll have to recover you field.  Now that missing glide shows it's ugly head. You can't just fly high and let go entirely to recover 300% of the release point's height down field. Imagine what you could do with keeping a light grip and walking forward instead of freeing the kite from your grasp.

Some quad designs favor a glide and some do not, it comes down (for me anyway) to which way the down-spars are attached to the leading edge.  If they are tightly held/bound behind (Djinn, Phoenix, Freidlein) then the falling leaf is favored.  If you can turn the elastic knots and washers such that they force the sail away from the LE then you are adding a curvature (Shooks and B-Series)  There may be a design technique or built-in mechanism to force that curvature (speed series or reflex kites)

If you fly a full sail or an SUL most of the time the glide is very desirable (you'll work less!) If you fly vented mostly then you don't need no stinking' glide, you want it to drop like a stone on your every command.

Testing and tuning are very personal.  Some like it gliding and some like it falling.

How are you going to hold the knots and washers behind the sail?  I used string to restrict the center point attachment on the leading edge, forcing the knots where I want 'em.  your milage may vary but finding your own solutions is half of the fun.

[Paul LaMasters]

On 1/31/2019 at 11:05 PM, DTill said:

I'm getting the catch down fairly consistent, but the lines keep jumping into the bridle and tangling.

 

SOLUTION: Dump the sleeving at the kite end, it weighs more and flaps around in big slack, instead tie a stopper knot at the end of the bare spectra and use 2 figure of eight knots to seal the loop closed (they tighten in two directions so it cannot slip or move, or untie either!!!). The little stopper gives you something to p[ull when you want to go home.  Make a bigger loop than usual as all adjustments will now be making it shorter.

I'm giving the tug pretty high in the window with the kite coming down at a fairly steep angle. Should I give the tug lower in the window with a lower angle glide or work on a more gentle catch. Do you initiate the tug just before it stalls at the top or slow it down 3/4 up and give it a soft high tug. I  thinking a more progessive catch wil help. I've been using prism micon Dynemma lines cut down to 35ft. Just ordered a set of LPG 50# x 30ft lines that should be stiffer and slicker, hoping those help. Mostly practicing on a 1.5 classic with a P90 frame in very light wind. I'm thinking a stiffer frame will be easier to throw. Would a skyshark clx 150/ 250 leading edge help with glide? Or throw the 3 wrap in and pump it up?

 

[riffclown]

On 7/23/2019 at 10:32 PM, DTill said:

Thanks for the replys, I'll be fixing this one myself. Already have the grossgrain from kite bag projects. Probably zigzag a stitch over the torn spots then add the tabs. I would like to cover the lower bungis as well. Did a Riff inspired triangle pocket on my 2 sized sail and that works great. 

Question for Paul, to tighten up the leading edge sleeve, do you assemble the leading edge and run a straight stitch with the needle in right position, presser foot running next to the rod?  My 1.5 sul could realy use this mod as well. Could be an awkward seam to sew.

To tighten up the leading edge sleeve during construction many of us (that are still using screen) simply use 2" Dacron. After the fold and sew it's a very tight sleeve for standard rods. SLE Rods simply won't fit.

For those using holes instead of screen, I assume they use their proper width (3" or 4") and fold 1" over to give the proper size sleeve and still have that extra inch or two to use the punch process.

Quite Simply, 2" Dacron folded perfectly and sewn with a 3 step zig zag stitch yields the tighter LE sleeve mentioned by Paul and that's Whether the next segment below is screen or a separate piece of dacron.

Experimenting with different fabrics from Dacron to Mylar backed Ripstop can be used to adjust the overall weight of the LE efforts.

Thanks for the mention re: the triangle pocket, The only drawback to the pocket is "it is a pocket"..It can and will collect sand and/or debris.